.62cal Proof Loads

[roundball]

PROOF LOADS FROM CREDIBLE SOURCES:
Bob Spencer is alive and well, and shared this info with me in an Email reply regarding the Turkey load he settled on:
===================================================
".....I use two smoothbores for turkey, and shoot the same load in both. The first barrel was made by Jackie Brown. I talked to him, asked him about the safety of 80 grains FFFg and 2 ounces of #6, and he described the proofing he did for it.

He loads 250 grains of FFFg and 6 (.62cal) round balls and found no damage at all, not even the slightest bulging as measured with a micrometer.

A load of 1 5/8oz. of shot is equivalent to slightly more weight than two round balls, so, in my barrel it is well within the safe range....."
========================================================
MY PS:
Dixie, and an independent mould maker out west make .62cal conical moulds...bullets weigh around 900 grains.

 

[Shelby Skinner]

I've read a lot of things on this forum about safe and unsafe loads etc. Most of it is hooey. But I'm reluctant to come out and say why as there is always that 1% yahoo that reads something and thinks it means he can go out and violate common sense.

Modern muzzleoading guns made with modern steel are capable of much more than we give them credit for. Now this most certainly DOES NOT apply to antique guns made with forged iron barrels. But once the Bessemer process improved the strength and alloying properties of steel in the 1850s we have been able to produce very high quality metal that is capable of withstanding serious pressures.

Modern guns are typically designed with a safety margin of about 50% in terms of their capabilities. This means a gun capable of handling 60,000 psi such as a .308 Winchester will not fail or be destroyed from pressure until it gets beyond 80-90,000 PSI. This has been confirmed by various tests run by the military, and arms makers over the years. A good read about the strength of modern guns can be found in Hatcher's Notebook by MG Julian Hatcher.

Modern Shotguns generate pressures and velocities very similar to traditional muzzleloaders. Yet if you look at a modern shotgun barrel going back even to the turn of the last century you see relatively thin barrels that will contain these pressures.

Muzzleloaders have MUCH thicker barrels that are only required from an appearance/asthetics standpoint. This makes them much stronger than we believe them to be.

Obviously the weakest link in a muzzleloader is the breech plug or perhaps the nipples. Yet if you were to calculate the total surface area of the threads on even a nipple you would probably find it exceeds the surface area of a locking lug on a modern shotgun or rifle.

All this doesn't mean you can go out and load the dadgummed thing to its limits just because you can. These things WILL fail if you repeatedly subject them to their design limits every time you pull the trigger. Besides, best accuracy and performance is almost never acheived with loads that push the edge.

But I believe them to be far safer than we give them credit for. Now if you want to talk about genuine 200 year old plus guns you will need to pay some serious attention to what you are doing. After all very few original Colt Walkers survived because people routinely overloaded them and blew em up. But remember, .they were made with steel made prior to the Bessemer process.

 

[faw3]

I'll go along with you on this , Ive put the 3 months and year Muzzle Blast had the barrel makers test and Ive never had a worry about shooting 2 62 balls at a time at stake busting, one LONG time member here shoots 5 and 150 grs 2f out of the same 1X32" 20/62 barrel for 7 years now and he makes the dang thing's (not the one he shoots - he added barrel makeing later) you DO need to ck your breech and nipple area and keep a eye on it. The MB test showed 400 to 500 grs and 5 balls for most barrels held up as new, Except the 32 ,36, and some "iffy" on 45's. My 2 cents, I DONT RECOMEND ANY OF THIS TO ANYONE, do what you feel best. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I think the following British Service charges listed in W.W. Greener's Book "The Gun and It's Development" illustrate appropriate loads for muzzleloading sportsmen. They represent the most widely accepted , authentic and most importantly safe recommendations for muzzleloading shotgunners

10 gauge= 1 5/8th ounces of shot 4 1/4 drams of powder

12 gauge= 1 1/4 ounces of shot and 3 1/4 drams of powder

14 gauge= 1 1/8 ounces of shot and 3 drams of powder

16 gauge= 1 ounce of shot and 2 3/4 drams of powder

20 gauge= 7/8th ounce of shot and 2 1/2 drams of powder

28 gauge= 3/4 ounce of shot and 2 drams of powder.



The 1887 definitive proof loads for the preceding are as follows:

10 gauge=2 ounces of shot and 8 drams of powder

12 gauge=1 3/4 ounces of shot and 7 drams of powder

14 gauge=1 2/3rd ounces of shot and 6 1/2 drams of powder

16 gauge=1 1/2 ounces of shot and 6 drams of powder

20 gauge=1 1/16 ounces of shot and 5 drams of powder

28 gauge=1 ounce of shot and 4 drams of powder


A dram is 27.34 grains of powder (call it 27.5)

American arms have never required proof testing. British and most European arms do. Following the standard service loads will yeild excellent results and a steady diet of these loads will harm neither the shotgun, nor more importantly the shotgunner.

My own experience is confined simply to shooting thousands of loads per year for forty years, thus I am not competent to address turkey hunting.

 

[roundball]

"...I am not competent to address turkey hunting..."

No disagreement here...trying to compare simple standard shotgun loads to loads in big strong muzzleloaders using black powder is like trying to compare apples & oranges...no matter which forum it's discussed on.

The people who know what they're talking about with respect to blackpowder smoothbore turkeys loads in relation to proof loads make that quite clear....you might want to contact them directly and take up your challenge with them.

While you're doing that, I'll keep shooting Bob Spencer's load in my .62cal Flinter every chance I get as it's simply an outstanding long range turkey load.

 

[roundball]

Couldn't have said it better...IMO there are many things in this great hobby based upon old carryover thinking from days when firearms were not as solid/strong as they are today.

There are only two dimensions to the discussion here:

1) "The 1+5/8oz shot payload weighs too much and will cause problems";

ANSWER: WRONG
.62cal conicals weigh 50% MORE than the shot load being used...AND...the proof test was unbelieveably, exponentially, vastly greater than what either the shot load or conical would represent.


2) "The shot pattern won't be optimal because it doesn't suscribe to some other paradigm";

ANSWER: Wrong
The pattern averages 16 pellets in a 5" circle at 40yds.

:thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

"...Muzzle Blast had the barrel makers test..."

"...The MB test showed 400 to 500 grs and 5 balls for most barrels held up as new..."

"...Ive never had a worry about shooting 2 62 balls at a time at stake busting..."

"...one LONG time member here shoots 5 and 150 grs 2f out of the same 1X32" 20/62 barrel for 7 years now..."

Hard to argue against Muzzle Blast tests and actual reality...
:thumbsup:

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

:haha:

IMO there are many things in this great hobby based upon old carryover thinking from days when firearms were not as solid/strong as they are today.

I think muzzleloading IS a carryover from days when firearms weren't as solid/strong as modern arms. I really don't know the strength of the steel tubing Jackie Brown uses, but I know it isn't proofed, and I know 1 5/8ths isn't a traditional 20 gauge load.

I don't shoot with you, (or near you :rotf: ), so I have no objection to whatever you pour down the muzzle. Some guys shoot a saboted jacketed bullet through a gun that loads from the front and call it muzzleloading. To each his own.

If you're happy with 16 pellets at 40 yards that great. If the important distinction is that it was fired with a 20 gauge, I guess that's somehow even better. The fact that you could duplicate those results with a full choked 10 or 12 gauge shooting a standard charge is apparently immaterial to your purposes.

My premise was simply that someone unfamilar with the hobby may be unaware of the established traditional data. I'm not aware of any published data with the authority of a proof house that recommends loads other than those I cited.

I'm sure anyone experimenting with turkey loads will be relieved to learn that they have Roundballs encouragement to exceed the recommended standard loads. Apparently those rascals at the Birmingham Proof House were just trying to keep Americans from bagging turkeys. (Probably staffed by a bunch of PETA activists anyway.) :winking:

 

[tg]

Why don't you let it rest Jim, the data you use is not relevant to todays ML barrels, that is the point that folks are trying to make, and if you want to be traditional, there were no printed testing standards for the 18th century and most of the period that ML's were used in the 19th.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

1) "The 1+5/8oz shot payload weighs too much and will cause problems";
ANSWER: WRONG
.62cal conicals weigh 50% MORE than the shot load being used...

Uh, well, my pocket calculator tells me that 1 5/8 ounce is 710 grains, or more than the weight of two .600" round balls. Now a conical weighing 50% more would be about 1065 grains or about like a six gauge ball, or three .600" balls plus a few pellets of #4 buck. I'd not care to think what the recoil of a seven pound gun would be like.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

To any and all offended by my sense of humor, sincere apologies. Well, as sincere as I'm capable of being with a grin on my face. (Some people are earnest and serious,but according to my late mother, I came out of the womb smiling and it has never left my face.)

The quality of muzzleloading arms vary. My only point in citing the recommended loads was to indicate the options available to an inexperienced shooter. I don't find the evidence of 16 pellets in a 5" circle at 40 yards, sufficient to justify a 10 gauge load in a 20 gauge gun.

But, I'm not the shotgun police. Roundball has recommended a heavy load, that is "unorthodox" compared to standard recommendations. Nothing prevents him from recommending it, anymore than anything prevents me from stating the standard recommended loads for various gauges.

Anyone reading this thread is free to reach their own conclusions. I would not think the submission of standard accepted loads either surprising or objectionable, but to those I've irritated I offer my apologies.

I think at this point the "egg is fried" and any futher comments from me would be pure contention.
Roundball has cited his loads and I've cited the standard accepted loads. There really is nothing more for me to add or argue. If I seem unnecessarily provocative, I will cease and desist, and apologize to one and all for my inconvenient and "unorthodox" sense of humor.

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

Iron Jim, I appreciate the info you gave above. I have two original (Damascus barreled) 14 gauge fowlers that I would like to shoot, and at least now I have a ballpark figure for loads. I plan to start below that, however, perhaps 70grains/1oz., just to say I've done it. After careful inspection, of course.

Any further comments would be welcome. :hatsoff:

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I've only shot one Damascus barreled gun that belonged to a friend. There's an Englishman on this site, Squire Robin I think who recently explained what to look for in an original gun. You might contact him and see what he has to say. Obviously, I tend to be very conservative thus I'd always recommend taking it to a trusted muzzleloading gunsmith for inspection.

According to W.W. Greener whom I've quoted previously a Damascus barrel “will not stand a blow given sideways. A knock against a hard substance will dent one barrel and frequently break the other in the weld.” Since a Damascus barrel is a mass of welds from breech to muzzle, you want to inspect the barrels for dents carefully.

In shooting the barrel(s) expand and contract and consequently weaken over time. Check for broken or fractured welds. I'm told that if you know a good machinist, he can magna flux the barrels to detect fractured or broken welds. The process is non destructive and will help you determine whether you've got wall hangers or shooters. A barrel that bulged 1/100" around the circumference failed the Birmingham Proof Test. You can't see that type of bulge, and requires very precise measurements. If the barrels are unsafe to shoot, you can always have the gun re=barreled. This won't be a quick or cheap solution but will result in a shootable gun.

 

[roundball]

Why don't you let it rest Jim, the data you use is not relevant to todays ML barrels, that is the point that folks are trying to make, and if you want to be traditional, there were no printed testing standards for the 18th century and most of the period that ML's were used in the 19th.

TG, don't worry about it...the readers know Brown & Spencer are the established credible professionals for the point I was making before the thread was disrupted and hijacked...we're good

 

[Shelby Skinner]

Jim,
Your load listings are more reflective of what is effecient in a given guage than what is the upper limit.

I also firmly believe the proof load data you have is meant for damascus arms.

I'll give you an example... Your list shows 1 1/4 ounces of shot and 3 1/4 drams of powder being the max for a 12 guage. Well..older english 12 guages were 2 1/2 shells.
Now I've probably fired upwards of 80,000 12 guage shells when I was shooting registered skeet on the circuit. The standard load was 1 1/8 but I preferred the 1 ounce myself. 1 1/4 is considered a heavy field load in most circles. But at unregistered Annie Oakley trap shoots I used to load and shoot 1 5/8 of shot behind about 3 1/2 drams of powder. Now granted, all this is in a modern gun. But these were all loads one could find in a Lyman reloading manual and all could easily and safely be replicated in a muzzleloading shotgun using blackpowder and while the pressure curve would be slightly different with somekless the overall pressure would be about the same.
Likewise, shooting a modern slug will generate about 1200-1400 fps with a 1 ounce slug--about what you get from a muzzleloader loaded witha round ball...and again at surprisingly similiar pressures.

The english loads had more to do with effeciency of the shot column not safety--which is another matter alltogether. And while I agree that turkey hunters as a group have a tendency to ignore the simple fact that more shot ain't always better when it comes to patterns. Its far from unsafe.

Me[url] personally...In[/url] a modern gun I shoot a 12 guage 2 3/4 mag dram equivilent load with 1 5/8 of hard nickle shot. This load outpatterns any 3" or 3.5" magnum shell I've ever tried and yields more velocity to boot. But you can't convince most turkey hunters of this fact because they have been marketed to the point that nothing can be killed with anything unless its a "magnum"...whatever that means.

This mindset carries over into the ML community and again, folks with 20 guage fowling peices can't believe a regular size load of 7/8-1 ounce of shot can put more pellets in a turkey than a BIG load but it can.

But again, all this has little to do with safety and more to do with effeciency and effectiveness.

Like so many things in life...YMMV.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

Actually Sheldby, I posted two tables earlier. One was for standard service loads and the other was definitive proof loads. The service load quoted for a 12 gauge was 1 1/4 ounces of shot and 3 1/4 drams of powder.

The Proof Load quoted was 1 3/4 ounces of shot and 7 drams of powder... for a 12 gauge. If you are shooting 1 5/8th of shot in a 12 gauge you are below the definitive proof load. You will have exceeded it however, if you are pushing 1 5/8th's of shot through a 20 gauge.


I am trying to write as seriously as possible to avoid offending anyone. If some sense of humor intrudes upon this diatribe, it will purely accidental.

The entire purpose of my replies was to offer both the standard service and proof loads. Perhaps everyone on this forum is an experienced and expert shotgunner, and has no need of this information and is simply bored by a repition of these facts. However on the outside chance that a novice may be reading, I would like to offer some information on established loads. Should someone discover that the established loads don't perform well, they may increase the charges to replicate the big bang at their own risk and hazard if they so desire. Call me cautious, but I like shooting below the proof loads. (Then again I'm one of those guys who has never buried the needle in his speedometer.)

Loads in excess of the definitive proof loads may not in my humble opinion be the best place to start working up a load. In my own limited experience I have achieved the best results with nearly standard loads. 3 drams of powder and 1 1/4 ounces of shot perform well enough through a full jug choked 12 gauge to harvest birds or break clays at 40 yards. I would suggest to someone who is dissatisfied with that 12 gauge load to tweak the components slightly a 1/4 either way.

I don't know the limitations of DOM seamless steel tubing used by certain gun makers. I am not a machinist, but have been told to be cautious when using heavy charges. (But, I'm also someone who drives the speed limit and heeds the road signs.)

The very worst that will happen to someone who is disappointed by following the load recommendations listed earlier, is that they will spend more time on the pattern board fine tuning their load. On the other hand, the very worst that will happen to someone who starts off using a load in excess of the definitive proof load in a barrel of untested strength is that they will be permently removed from this board. (I don't think they have message boards beyond the grave.)

 

[roundball]

"...Its far from unsafe..."
"...folks with 20 guage fowling peices can't believe a regular size load of 7/8-1 ounce of shot can put more pellets in a turkey than a BIG load but it can..."

The primary turkey vitals to go after when using shot loads are the tiny little brain smaller than a green pea, and the neck vertabrae with it no bigger that a standard wooden pencil and frankly, normally not quite that thick.

I would very much appreciate knowing and gladly try your 7/8oz or 1oz load data secrets that would allow my .62cal/.20ga Flint smoothbore to repeatedly put MORE shot in a turkey's neck vertabrae at 40 yards than my proven .62cal 1+5/8oz shot charge gives me.

In fact, just let me have your 7/8oz or 1oz load data for my .62cal Flint smoothbore that will repeatedly put simply AS MANY pellets in that neck vertebrae at 40 yards as my proven load.

If it'll pattern test at 40 yards like my turkey load does I'll hunt with it.
:thumbsup:

 

[faw3]

"Hard to argue against Muzzle Blast tests and actual reality...

Well I dont know about that... :rotf: but these old ones I picked up have some intresting stuff, the test on ML barrels at the time March 86 Jerry Cunningham who wrote one if not all 3 parts to someone that had written that barrels are weak used 12L.14 steel (oct barrel I think, it really doesnt say) and shot .308s out of it , 1,500 shots at over 50,000 psi and cking every shot, no worry! Anyway I didnt see this was a shotgun thing, sorry for butting in. Fred :thumbsup:

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

Thanks, Iron Jim. I'll get in touch with the Squire.

Gene

 

[Rusty Old Gunns]

"Testosterone spill in isle 4!"

Come on now Guys, you're both right. Roundball, if that load floats your boat well... ship ahoy!

Like you, I respect Bob's opinion as I am sure thousands of us avid muzzleloaders do. And yes his data is proven and efficient.

Your posts have always been interesting and informative. I too adore the 20 and always look for ways to extend its usefullness.

And Iron Jim. I think you are right in presenting some solid standards as starting points for shooters. We here forget that "Newbees" come to this forum asking about loads for that wall hanger they bought at the yard sale. I think that we sometimes forget that some newbie may read about a load we discuss and cram it down an old timer's barrel making his wife rich.

It seems that Jim is preaching "The right tool for the right job" and Roundball enjoys exploring the diversity of the tools he possesses.

I think your quandary here is more "Convention vs style"

But I think that both of you have made your points.

As for me... I'm still crying over Anna Nichole.

(Wonder what her load was)