Something has been nagging at me ever since I got serious about this longrifle stuff. I have looked at scores of sites and probably hundreds of rifles and one thing seems to stand out. There seems to be no correlation between the cost of a rifle and it's appearance. As an example - I just looked at two Lehigh Valley style rifles. One was $8000 and the other was $1400. There didn't appear to be much difference in the amount of carving/engraving between the two. Even taking into consideration the difference in price between the 'best' parts and cheap parts, you are only talking about a few hundred dollars at most. so what is it - reputation of the builder, or just a matter of what someone is willing to pay. Because I see a lot of rifles in the $6K and up price range that don't seem to be all that much fancier then many of the $1500-$2500 rifles.
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A Bit of a Problem with Smokepole Prices
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blacksmithman64
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Quality, hoss. An experienced builder knows what he's doing and an amateur doesn't. But he's willing to take yer money and go get some more experience!
Without knowing which rifles you are making a comparison on it would sound like the builders name and reputation is the difference. Thats not to say the lesser priced gun is a substandard built gun, just that the higher priced gun may have a better known builders name engraved on the barrel.
There may also be minor differences you aren't noticing. A forged buttplate can look very similar to a cast one but the price difference between parts is dramatic. You have to really want a hand made part to pay the difference.
There are also lots of folks that collect rifles for the sake of having a rifle built by certain contemporary builders. Hershel House, Homer Dangler or Mike Brooks for instance.
Cheers,
Ken
There may also be minor differences you aren't noticing. A forged buttplate can look very similar to a cast one but the price difference between parts is dramatic. You have to really want a hand made part to pay the difference.
There are also lots of folks that collect rifles for the sake of having a rifle built by certain contemporary builders. Hershel House, Homer Dangler or Mike Brooks for instance.
Cheers,
Ken
I would agree that it is the builder that makes the price larger. But if I had to chose between the lower priced one and the higher priced one and quilty is the same I would go cheaper. One reason is the larger priced one will hardly leave the house just because of the price. Thats just me though.
Maybe one maker is tired of working for unskilled wages and has decided to increase his prices. 1400 is too cheap for a carved and engraved gun unless its poorly executed. To cheap for a good "plain" gun so far as that goes.
Look at modern gun prices. A Ruger Single Six is about $400.
Dan
Look at modern gun prices. A Ruger Single Six is about $400.
Dan
One thing that hits me right off is what you are seeing is a Photograph of a rifle, not the actual rifle. You look at some of these rifles that are high priced "in hand" and man, they will simply astound you. A photograph of them does not do them justice. The inletting & carvings & engraving on some of them is not just good, it is Perfect...... and hard to believe a guy did it by hand. I have seen locks inlet so precicely that it takes 30 min to work it out of the inlet...... inlays so perfect they look like the grew in the wood..... brass & silver joined so closely it takes a magnifying glass to see the line between them.... etc.
When you pick up & closely inspect a rifle built by some of these famous builders, it truely is a work of art & then you can see why they get the big $ for them.
:bow:
When you pick up & closely inspect a rifle built by some of these famous builders, it truely is a work of art & then you can see why they get the big $ for them.
:bow:
When you consider that the parts to build a rifle will cost $650-$800, and that does not include a $400 piece of wood, or a hand made wought iron barrel.
As well as at least 80 hours to put all the parts together in a beautiful rifle, or fowler.
The builder is working at minimum wage.
so $1400-$2000 seems like a bargain.
Will they shoot any better than a Hopkins & Allen underhammer (my favourite) NO!
But holding a piece of history, with your name on it, makes you walk a little prouder, and others will just look and wish.
Old Ford
As well as at least 80 hours to put all the parts together in a beautiful rifle, or fowler.
The builder is working at minimum wage.
so $1400-$2000 seems like a bargain.
Will they shoot any better than a Hopkins & Allen underhammer (my favourite) NO!
But holding a piece of history, with your name on it, makes you walk a little prouder, and others will just look and wish.
Old Ford
blacksmithman64
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Yeah, what birddog said! :thumbsup:
and well executed sterling wire inlay is something to behold in person!
and well executed sterling wire inlay is something to behold in person!
That is the key! Experience!
Builders who have been at the bench many years, and have proven their skills. Their rifles will have a branded name to back up the higher price!
There are many good builders, out there who can build a pretty decent rifle for much less!
Builders who have been at the bench many years, and have proven their skills. Their rifles will have a branded name to back up the higher price!
There are many good builders, out there who can build a pretty decent rifle for much less!
Many Klatch
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It is just the difference between art and utility. I shoot all my guns a lot and carry them out in the woods. I think it would be a waste of money for me to have an engraved fancy gun. But the $6,000 guns are well worth the money if that is the kind of money that you want to spend. Most gunbuilders that I know don't get rich building guns. It is hard work, they had to spend years learning their trade. They probably make $15 to $20 bucks an hour if they are good. If they have a name and can get more and make $25 or $30 bucks an hour then more power to them.
What you don't see is that many of the name gunbuilders have a backlog of 2 to 5 years with guns already on order. They don't have to lower their prices to keep busy. They get phone calls from impatient clients and then they get people with cash up front that want a gun quickly, so the cash people get moved in front of the people that want a gun but haven't accumulated the cash yet. It's a juggling act for them to try and keep all their customers happy. I'll bet none of them ever see anything as short as a 40 hour week if they are doing this full time.
So, the guns are worth what people are willing to pay. The workmanship is there, the value is there. The guns won't lose value if you drive them around the block once if you have a famous makers name on the barrel.
Would I buy one for myself, no not really, I don't have the desire or the need. But I would be glad to show you the one that I had built for my wife for $2,500 about 5 years ago by Mike Lea. She needed a lightweight flintlock and got a bodacious piece of curly maple and some nice engraving on the barrel and some silver inlays. If the wife isn't happy ain't nobody happy.
Many Klatch
What you don't see is that many of the name gunbuilders have a backlog of 2 to 5 years with guns already on order. They don't have to lower their prices to keep busy. They get phone calls from impatient clients and then they get people with cash up front that want a gun quickly, so the cash people get moved in front of the people that want a gun but haven't accumulated the cash yet. It's a juggling act for them to try and keep all their customers happy. I'll bet none of them ever see anything as short as a 40 hour week if they are doing this full time.
So, the guns are worth what people are willing to pay. The workmanship is there, the value is there. The guns won't lose value if you drive them around the block once if you have a famous makers name on the barrel.
Would I buy one for myself, no not really, I don't have the desire or the need. But I would be glad to show you the one that I had built for my wife for $2,500 about 5 years ago by Mike Lea. She needed a lightweight flintlock and got a bodacious piece of curly maple and some nice engraving on the barrel and some silver inlays. If the wife isn't happy ain't nobody happy.
Many Klatch
Hours spent. When I had Cherry Girl done up the lockplate on the Chambers lock chosed wasn't of the proper shape for the style I was mimicing so Mr.Donelson reshaped the lock. The ramrod thimbles and entry pipe were all forged and shaped by him rather than off the shelf. Added nothing to the shootability or accuracy but made me happy and burned up ozens of hours of skilled labor. Little things like that add up fast.
Volume of scale also makes a huge difference. If Pedersoli turns out a particular design of rifle they make 30,000 a year (or more). Some of the semi-custom U.S. makers may do 200 of identical models with a few options. Custom makers may only do 1 or 2 of a specific design (and maybe 15 or 20 different designs per year).
Specialization leads to efficiency.
Volume of scale also makes a huge difference. If Pedersoli turns out a particular design of rifle they make 30,000 a year (or more). Some of the semi-custom U.S. makers may do 200 of identical models with a few options. Custom makers may only do 1 or 2 of a specific design (and maybe 15 or 20 different designs per year).
Specialization leads to efficiency.
pchwcf50110
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what i have always wondered about custom ML's is if you pay let's say $5K for one how much does it depreciate? will it truley hold it's value or do you loose 50% right away. i just don't see with how all the hand labor that is built into the price (and rightly so) that it could be a wise investment finacially. i realize finacial investment/return is probally not the top reason for purchasing one but that is one that caused me to make my own rifles. believe me, i would rather buy rifles and shoot them using the time it takes to build them.
Mike Brooks
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If you buy the right gun from the right maker they don't depreciate. From what I've seen, buying quality guns by a maker with a name is a far better investment than the stock market. The guns I built 10 or 12 years ago generally resale for 1/3rd to 1/2 more than the owner paid. Of course you have to get then in front of the right buyer.451whitworth said:
A low end piece of crap will always be a low end piece of crap. Spend your money wisely.
Something is only worth what you can find somebody willing to pay for it. There is no Blue-Book of custom muzzleloader values.
I sold my Kit Ravenshear Bess for a profit after using it well for 15 years (and still occasionally kick myself over it but life is harsh).
Consider this variation on Many Klatch's backlog comment: If you have a build from a maker with a two-year backlog then your one-year old firearm of his may be at a premium IF the buyer wants that style and it has been maintained properly.
If, on the other hand, you've used it to hold down barbed-wire fences while hunting in the rain and have only cleaned it twice in that year it may suffer on the auction block.
I sold my Kit Ravenshear Bess for a profit after using it well for 15 years (and still occasionally kick myself over it but life is harsh).
Consider this variation on Many Klatch's backlog comment: If you have a build from a maker with a two-year backlog then your one-year old firearm of his may be at a premium IF the buyer wants that style and it has been maintained properly.
If, on the other hand, you've used it to hold down barbed-wire fences while hunting in the rain and have only cleaned it twice in that year it may suffer on the auction block.
Erzulis boat
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Once you start building your own, you will see that the prices are extremely fair.
It's funny, but just last night as I wrapped up the day's work on my latest Snaphaunce (many hours to go yet), I remember thinking that making a living doing this stuff would be brutal.
As to the disparity? One guy makes $2.21 an hour, and the other $7.50................
It's funny, but just last night as I wrapped up the day's work on my latest Snaphaunce (many hours to go yet), I remember thinking that making a living doing this stuff would be brutal.
As to the disparity? One guy makes $2.21 an hour, and the other $7.50................
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I am often thinking the same, especially after looking on the CLA website. I just have an original jaeger rifle rebuildt by an experienced ML gunsmith and his prices are very moderate and I like his economic philosophy. The communication is excellent and his turnaround time really low compared to other builders. He builds
ML since 47 years only using handtools, no powertools. That`s what I decided I want for that rifle, to keep it as close to original as possible. And it will see use in the woods,too :grin:
My first custom ML from a different builderwas promised to be delivered in one year and I got it after 3 years. It is a nice piece, but I don´t like builders who let me wait forever...
So I think there are such and such builders on the market.
ML since 47 years only using handtools, no powertools. That`s what I decided I want for that rifle, to keep it as close to original as possible. And it will see use in the woods,too :grin:
My first custom ML from a different builderwas promised to be delivered in one year and I got it after 3 years. It is a nice piece, but I don´t like builders who let me wait forever...
So I think there are such and such builders on the market.
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Easy to figure:
100 Hours of Direct labor....$2000
100 Hours of Skilled Labor...$3500
Parts........................$1000
Your rifle will cost.........$6500
OH...You want engraving???? Forgot to add that.
HH
100 Hours of Direct labor....$2000
100 Hours of Skilled Labor...$3500
Parts........................$1000
Your rifle will cost.........$6500
OH...You want engraving???? Forgot to add that.
HH
There are many things which can be factored into the price of a M/L and most have been covered.
Some are bought for line use, some are bought for hunting and a percentage become "safe queens/investments" and some are bought because people like nice things.
The economic level by the purchaser is the major deciding factor of a new purchase, is new the aqusition cost too low or high.
For some purchasers, there is a certain amount of "snob appeal", my rifle was made by so and so.
In a post about gun building, one builder said he was not going to charge less for his time than the UPS driver who delivered his parts. He was a craftsman and was going to be paid as such.
A person charges as much as his market will allow.
The better talented you are, the more you are financially rewarded.
Buying guns is kind of like buying art work, their are "starving artist sales" and then there are art galleried selling know artist's work.
A painting is a painting, then there is workmanship and quality.
Seems fair to me.
RDE
Some are bought for line use, some are bought for hunting and a percentage become "safe queens/investments" and some are bought because people like nice things.
The economic level by the purchaser is the major deciding factor of a new purchase, is new the aqusition cost too low or high.
For some purchasers, there is a certain amount of "snob appeal", my rifle was made by so and so.
In a post about gun building, one builder said he was not going to charge less for his time than the UPS driver who delivered his parts. He was a craftsman and was going to be paid as such.
A person charges as much as his market will allow.
The better talented you are, the more you are financially rewarded.
Buying guns is kind of like buying art work, their are "starving artist sales" and then there are art galleried selling know artist's work.
A painting is a painting, then there is workmanship and quality.
Seems fair to me.
RDE
I guess, for me, one of the hardest parts is I am in an area that has no muzzleloader shops within 200 miles and no good ones within, lets ee clear cross country. So if I want something it has to be by pictures or word of mouth.
But I have seen that buying used can be a better deal than buying new; and if you look around you can find what you want. But it is extremely hard to tell condition and quality from a picture. I have been very lucky with my two purchases; but both sellers sold them to me with a 'return if you don't like' agrement.
I paid $1700 for a used left hand 45 cal that turned out to be very nice indeed. I was glad to pay that amount for rifle I didn't have to wait for and was covered with engraving and carving. The funny part is I paid $700 for an absolutely goreous rifle with incredible work built back around 1980. It shoots incredibly well and from what I've seen this rifle is probably worth around $3000 at least. BUT arifle is worth what you can get and I purchased it for the same amount the previous owner paid several years ago.
But I have seen that buying used can be a better deal than buying new; and if you look around you can find what you want. But it is extremely hard to tell condition and quality from a picture. I have been very lucky with my two purchases; but both sellers sold them to me with a 'return if you don't like' agrement.
I paid $1700 for a used left hand 45 cal that turned out to be very nice indeed. I was glad to pay that amount for rifle I didn't have to wait for and was covered with engraving and carving. The funny part is I paid $700 for an absolutely goreous rifle with incredible work built back around 1980. It shoots incredibly well and from what I've seen this rifle is probably worth around $3000 at least. BUT arifle is worth what you can get and I purchased it for the same amount the previous owner paid several years ago.
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