A Bit of a Problem with Smokepole Prices

[Many Klatch]

SPlais: One advantage of paying the extra bucks for a gun by a name builder is that the builder didn't get that name by doing bad work. A Herschel House or a Mike Brooks gun will shoot well and will be well made and if it isn't they will fix it before you see it. Herschel gets a lot more for his guns than Mike because he can. Herschel has an entire rooting section waiting for his latest creation that they can drool over.

If you do live out in the back of beyond gun-wise, there is some comfort in ordering from someone that is known to many.

Many Klatch

 

[tecum-tha]

Who gives $20 an hour for direct labour?
Not me!
That is the problem in the US and in Europe: All those unskilled guys want to charge $20 an hour and eat out with the family everyday! The problem is that they get it!! That is :bull:
And if those direct labour guys loose their job, the educated guys not loosing their jobs have to pay for their welfare.

100 hours skilled labour for $35 an hour? That would be 200 hours total on one rifle.
1000 dollars for parts? I payed $630 for parts and even ordered a Rice swamped barrel with it. Then maybe $250 for an extra fancy stock. Well, that´s about $870, but I rarely see high priced rifles with those fancy barrels or something extra expensive in parts. Most are just GM barrels(which are cheaper) or Colerain.

How can a well known builder offer a basic custom ML all made with handtools for about $2000?
Because he has a different economic philosophy than "charge all the market can bear" and why you get "handmade" forged masterpieces from Japan at very reasonable prices?
For those people gunbuilding or forging is not just a job, but a profession. They enjoy what they do and turning out perfect products makes them proud. If you`re not in only for the money and can live by modest means, that is the real craftman to me!!!!

 

[FishDFly]

This subject really made me think abit after reading some of the posts.

Gun builder "A" does his work in the evenings and weekends, not his primary source of income. In all honesty, he is supplementing his income to do as he wishes. His dream is to be commended and I wish for his talent and work ethics to be successful. His work demands one price.

Gun builder "B" does his work full time and this is his full time income. He has served his time, learned his chosen profession and this is how he wants to make his earnings to support himself and his family.

How can anyone fault a full time builder for what he charges, he receives no retirement, no medical insurance, no life insurance, no dental insurance, etc from a union or a company retirement program.

This person is a private business man, why find fault with this person for what he is requiring dollar wise for his craftmanship. His work demands another price.

I respect those who do as they dream and have the talents to do so, the rest of us wish we could do so and are jealous.

RDE

 

[Splais]

I had to leave before I could finish my first post. I’d like to comment on a couple of other issues and respond to a couple of things.

First off I don’t see how anyone can build rifles as their only source of income and make it unless they were charging $10K per rifle; but then nobody could afford to buy them; at least not enough people to make a living. I don’t think anyone can argue with the skills it takes to build a fine rifle; it takes time and talent. Therefore the only reasonable option for most people is getting a rifle from someone who loves what they do and does it for the enjoyment he gets, he therefore charges prices probably way less then what his work should be worth, but will get him a sale. This whole ”˜modern’ longrifle building is kind of a catch-22 situation.

It also seems that it is much easier to get a high quality rifle buying a used rifle, then it is ordering a special build. The $700 rifle I mentioned in my other post being a perfect example. And I have looked enough to know that if you look hard enough you can find just about anything you want. For the life of me I can’t figure why a person would want to wait a year for a rifle if he can find the same thing used.

As to using a ”˜name’ builder ”“ just what does that mean. It seems like everybody and their dog is building muzzleloaders these days. Just go to TOTW and look at all the builder names on their rifles. Look at the hundreds of builder names appearing on CLA’s list of artisans. How in the world are you supposed to find a ”˜better than most’ builder when you can’t actually see his work. If you post on MLF, fact is you get the same 3 or 4 names/shops all the time. But besides that, in all the sports I’ve been in it seems like the MLing crowd is one of the most opinioned group I’ve ever come across, and I don’t mean that in a derogatory manner. There is very little ”˜standardized’ in ML shooting other than the fact we are all shoving it down the barrel.

One last thing. I wonder if the rifles being built today will be appreciated and collected 200 years from now just like the rifles made in 1800 are appreciated by us. Is there really a difference between a longrifle made 1800 and one made in 2000 ”“ I think not, other than the age. In the year 2200 custom made rifles from the year 2000 will probably be viewed with awe and love; and all those factory mass produced jobs will be the trade rifles of the 21st century.

In any event, to get back on topic; I don’t think I’m wrong in saying you can get an incredibly high quality rifle for $2000 +. Then again, I wish I could afford one of those $10k jobs just so I could tell people what I paid for it and keep a straight face. :grin:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Heck. A guy with no education thinks he's entitled to $69 an hour to bolt a seat in an SUV over & over as it moves down a line why not 1/3 that (with no medical or dental, even) to someone who can research a design and make a rifle out of a wood board & some rough cast parts?

 

[renovato]

Once you start building your own, you will see that the prices are extremely fair.

It's funny, but just last night as I wrapped up the day's work on my latest Snaphaunce (many hours to go yet), I remember thinking that making a living doing this stuff would be brutal.

As to the disparity? One guy makes $2.21 an hour, and the other $7.50................

I have to agree. I remember a conversation on this site a couple years ago. Steve Zihn was totalling up the hours spent vs. cost and I think it came out to about $7.70 an hour or so. At that rate, we're in danger of running out of builders, as few talented individuals are willing to enter that segment of the market for so little pay.

Realistically, builders should be making what any other custom gunsmith makes per hour. The downside is that would put the guns out of reach for all but the most financially able. I'd have a hard time with a $2,000 gun right now. A $20,000 one would simply never happen.

I would get into professional building in a heartbeat if I could make a good living from it. I'm sure there are others who would also.

 

[tecum-tha]

That is what he thinks and what he got and now the company`s will file for chapter 11 pretty soon. A little bailout :rotf: will not do when even the other companies in the world have big losses although their wages are way lower.
Same here in Europe: some "skilled" worker on an assembly line gets more per hour than someone who studied for 6 years on a university in a reputable science quite frequently. :youcrazy:
That gives our young generation the wrong example! They think they don´t need to pay for an education and still make good money, have kids without financial backup, can live in a trailer without paying taxes....and the idiots paying is the lower middleclass who looks after improving his house (and therefore has to pay taxes) and will loose ground rapidely. But this middleclass was and is the power of economic development, always was. I don´t know what the politics do when there is no-one to press out anymore and the economic dynamics dwindle.

 

[shortstring]

I never got around to charging enough for my work. Even at that every once in a while someone would have a problem with my price. I would always say that out of fairness that I would do the job for their hourly wage. Unfortunatly nobody ever took me up on it.

As has already been stated, the going price for custom guns is more about the name on the barrel than the actual work. There's only one problem with all this & it contributes to the overall picture of ML usage today. & that's the fact that you can drop by Cabelas & pick up a modern ML zip gun for 2 or 3 hundred. All we can hope for is a situation such as has happened with traditional archery.

 

[Headhunter]

tecum-tha,

$20.00 USD for labor is a Tad on the cheap side and $35.00 USD is Way too low for current shop prices.

Or it is here in the USA anyway.

HH

 

[john armstrong]

Not to many people making money in the stock market these days. A gun built by you or any other modern builder is not a truly good investment. What has inflation done in the last ten, twelve years. "I should have invested in milk 5 yrs ago. The "crap" doubled in price." Buy the rifle you feel comfortable with for the money you can afford to spend and enjoy. If you have $8,000 start looking for an original rifle. Why pay that much for a knockoff.

 

[Erzulis boat]

One last thing. I wonder if the rifles being built today will be appreciated and collected 200 years from now just like the rifles made in 1800 are appreciated by us. Is there really a difference between a longrifle made 1800 and one made in 2000 ”“ I think not, other than the age. In the year 2200 custom made rifles from the year 2000 will probably be viewed with awe and love; and all those factory mass produced jobs will be the trade rifles of the 21st century.

I often think about the same thing. I am very proud of my work, and hope that it is around centuries from now. I will always stamp/engrave the actual date of manufacture, for example, my last Snaphaunce says my name and 2007, and on the barrel underside, I clearly stamp YR. 20-- etc. on all my builds so that there is no mistake. Anybody with a passing background can tell that it is not actually from the 1600's but I want to be sure that it is never taken as a fake, but a reproduction.

I collect old bicycles, and ALL repaint jobs are clearly dated in a discreet location on the frame.

A bit off topic, but something that I feel strongly about.

 

[pchwcf50110]

Not to many people making money in the stock market these days. A gun built by you or any other modern builder is not a truly good investment. What has inflation done in the last ten, twelve years. "I should have invested in milk 5 yrs ago. The "crap" doubled in price." Buy the rifle you feel comfortable with for the money you can afford to spend and enjoy. If you have $8,000 start looking for an original rifle. Why pay that much for a knockoff.

that's how i have always felt about knockoffs. about ten years ago i bought two original english sporting rifles, a Blanch and Sons .62 cal. and a William Moore .66 cal. at the time i thought they were kinda expensive but builders who i never heard of wanted more to build a modern copy. i now see them going for over double what i paid. would the modern copies appreciate like that? i doubt it.

 

[Splais]

I'm not sure if I agree with the term 'Reproduction'. Is a Colt 45 made in 2008 by colt a reproduction of one made in 1875. No, it's a colt 45 made in 2008 that's all. It's the same with a custom longrifle. It's not a reproduction unless it is an exact copy of an original rifle from an older period; otherwise it's just a 'modern' longrifle. and probably better made than one from 1800. Am I correct in this line of thought :hmm:

 

[Erzulis boat]

I'm not sure if I agree with the term 'Reproduction'. Is a Colt 45 made in 2008 by colt a reproduction of one made in 1875. No, it's a colt 45 made in 2008 that's all. It's the same with a custom longrifle. It's not a reproduction unless it is an exact copy of an original rifle from an older period; otherwise it's just a 'modern' longrifle. and probably better made than one from 1800. Am I correct in this line of thought :hmm:

Sounds right to me, "Modern Muzzleloader" would be more correct.

 

[user 13289]

I'm keenly aware of the hand-built fitted products in another area. When the builder starts to get a decent price for his goods--seemingly outrageous by outsiders--he/she is on the way to making a decent living. Even the guys with 6-year waiting lists aren't overpaid, but they LOVE their work and the product shows it.

Back to guns--anybody seen the mini-docu on Don Klein on the 'tube? Wonderful piece. 900 hours of labor and I'm sure he didn't get a "union" labor rate.

As far as the price of imports--two words: exchange rate. And two more words: heavy depreciation.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The only reason the term " Replica " is bandied about too much, and often misapplied to Modern Muzzleloaders is because in 1968, Congress passed the 1968 Gun Control Act, and exempted from its registration of sales, and restriction of sale to FFL dealers only , antique rifles, shotguns and pistols, Mlers, and guns made before 1898, as well as any other guns that may be added to the list by the Secretary of the Treasury( ATFE is a department of the Treasury). Since Mlers are not a huge crime problem, or a " firearm of choice " for criminals, all Mlers, including the modern guns, are referred to as Replicas, even when they aren't, really. Thank your Congress(wo)man and Senators for that leap from reality. And no one has thought to change or correct it in the 40 years since. And, oh, notice how quickly our violent and gun crime rates dropped with the passage of that law...... yeah,.... and then I have a bridge from Brooklyn I can sell you for such a deal!!!!!! :rotf: :rotf: :youcrazy: :blah: :rotf: :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[Tinker2]

As I see it:

Not every one can afford me. Sorry, but that’s the way it is.

If you can’t tell or know the difference, don’t pay the difference.

If you think I charge to much, that fine just try to not get in the way.




Tinker2

 

[thewho66]

I dont think using the term shop rate a good indicator of how much builders ( one person ie Mike Brooks for example ) charges. When you take a car in for repair and the shop rate is 48.00 an hour, you are paying the person to work on the car about 14.00-28.00hr.( depending on skill of training) The rest goes to the dealership for taxs, insurence, and other costs. Price for a gun to me is a personal choice and most people will pay for what they find is a value to them. Most of us buy based what we can afford as well as percieved value to us. Example Mike Brooks ( sorry to use you again) charges what I would consider a good value for your money if for no other reason is that he has a presence here on the forum as well as his web site and you know how he makes his product and what parts he uses. Other new makers out there are also good Like Oldarmy He has a presence as well on the forum and shows his work and offers it for sale in the clasified. Sorry to be long winded just to say you buy what you like and can afford as long as you find a value in it.