A couple of Kentucky Pistol questions

[cdg]

Hey all, I"m new to this forum. I have found intenet searches to yield very little in terms of results in my searches for good muzzleloading informatioin. I have had my eye on a Kentucky pistol for some time now. I'm primarily interested in the flintlock versions. I have no muzzleloading experience, but significant firearms training. I'm 17 years old; I turn 18 in October. So my questions are as follows:

What do I want to look for in a pistol if I want to shoot it a lot? The local range is only about 3 miles from my house, so think every day I get the chance.

How accurate can a Kentucky pistol be? (flinlock, but I'm assuming it makes little difference physically, although I'm sure there must be some issues with flinching when the flash pan ignites)

How accurate can one be for around $200? (I know they can be expensive, but I really don't want to spend too much on the gun)

Good brands? I have been looking at a Tradiditions kentucky pistol.

Made in USA? Is that too much to ask for my price range? I hope at least not to buy something made in China.

Comfort of shooting- If I shoot a lot, how much will it hurt, what can one do to reduce discomfort when shooting something of such an old design?

Kits- I have never built a gun in my life, but I do have some mechanical inclination. Can I save money on a kit, is it beyond my building ability?

Is it a bad idea to start into muzzleloading with a flinlock pistol? Like I said earlier, I am familiar with the proper handling of a firarm, but what challenges might I run into with a muzzleloading flintlock? Is there a flintlock tutorial on the web anywhere that might give me some good reading about firing and maintaining a flintlock?

Like I said, I turn 18 this octoboer, I hope to be able to buy the pistol by christmas.

One last offhanded question- what can you tell me about a wheellock pistol? I'm curious more than anything as to how common, where and when they were used, etc. Maybe that question doesn't belong here, but any guidence you can offer here is apprciated.

Thanks,
Craig

 

[[email protected]]

CDG....
You make sure ya get that Flint pistol!
You will love it! It will shoot as good as you can,
believe me ! I bought my first one when I was your age
and I am still shooting them! I am now 50 years young...
now does that tell ya anything????
THEY ARE A BLAST... i tend to like both flinters AND percussion....bothe are nice.
do some reading here on the forum and you will find all the info ya need.....any questions ya got can be answered here.....
You will love burning CHARCOAL.
I would advise ya to buy one that is all ready put together.... you will have more confidence in it than ya would a Kit.
Believe me.....those Flint Pistols are just as accurate and DEADLY as the mod 1911 45 cal automatic.
but....they are ALOT more FUN.....

**** WV SCROUNGER *** :m2c:

 

[44-henry]

I also enjoy flintlocks, but I would urge a little caution in the matter in this instance. A good flintlock can be every bit as reliable as a percussion lock but (and this is a very important but) it needs to be a good flintlock. Pick poorly and you will probably have nothing but trouble with you new pistol, been there, done that, it's not fun. One of the worst ones I ever had was some fancy italian job with a brass barrel, pretty gun, looked to be decent quality, but I never could get the lock to go off with any consistancy. Many years have passed and my skills have increased, I realize now what was causing the problems and now I could correct it, but I sold the gun in disgust not too long after I got it, if I didn't have a father who loved blackpowder and got me another pistol that proved to be more suitable I might easily have given up on the sport with that one experience. There are many options out there for blackpowder pistols within your price range, perhaps one of the best might be one of the Pietta cap and ball revolvers. The 1858's are extremely accurate and tend to shoot to the point of aim, you can usually pick them up for well under $200, sometimes for half that. The Colt style are also fun, but they don't always shoot to point of aim. If your dead set on a single shot take a look at the older CVA kentucky pistols, my father has a flinter that is quite reliable and with a good flint it has never given me any trouble, they also make this one in percussion. You could probably find either for under $200. They used to be offered in kits which aren't too hard to assemble. Bottom line, there are lots of options, research the topic before you put your money down, go to the range and try to meet other black powder shooters and maybe you can try out some of the different guns. Most of all be safe and have a good time.

 

[Zonie]

CDG: Some thoughts on your questions:

What do I want to look for in a pistol if I want to shoot it a lot?

The best quality you can get. IMO, the CVA and Traditions are Spanish. They will work fine, but the quality is not quite as good as the Italian guns like Pedersoli. Of course the Italian guns usually cost more.


How accurate can a Kentucky pistol be?

Speaking of the single shot pistol, with the right load they can be fairly accurate. The biggest problem many of them have is the trigger pull. Usually it is heavy and rough making precision shooting very difficult.
The Cap and Ball guns usually have very good triggers but IMO, the accuracy is usually not as good as a patched round ball from a rifled barrel.

Made in USA? Is that too much to ask for my price range?

Unfortunatly, after Thompson Center stopped making their pistol, there have been no large commercial houses in the USA to replace them. Custom US made pistols are out of your price range.

Comfort of shooting- If I shoot a lot, how much will it hurt(?)

Generally speaking, black powder guns do not kick like modern smokeless guns. It is more like a hard push. Also, most loads you will be shooting have relatively light projectiles.
A .45 caliber roundball is about 130 grains. a .50 caliber roundball is about 180 grains.
Because Black Powder is relatively weak (compared to smokeless) the velocitys and recoil is fairly mild.
Only the .44 Walker (and Dragoon) cap and ball guns are usually shot with heavy powder loads and the Walker weighs over 4 1/2 pounds so the recoil is absorbed by the gun.
One of the nice things about muzzleloading is you custom load the gun for each shot. If you don't like the recoil, you can reduce it on the next shot by reducing the powder load a few grains.

Can I save money on a kit, is it beyond my building ability

Save money? Not really. The difference in price is usually only about $20 or so, unless you can find a kit someone bought and never put together. Those can usually be bought for a song.
As for your ability, if you get a kit made by a large commercial place like Traditions, Deer Creek, CVA etc, they are basically factory guns without the finish. The hard part is already done so all they require is sanding, polishing, blueing or browning, staining and applying some sort of wood finish.

Is it a bad idea to start into muzzleloading with a flinlock pistol?
In my opinion, yes. First off, with a Flintlock, there usually is a greater delay between the pulling of the trigger and the firing of the charge than there is with a Precussion gun. Holding a pistol exactly on target during this period is very difficult, even for the master pistol shooter.

If you are only interested in shooting and hitting somewhere close, the Flintlock will do the job but for precision target shooting (IMO) the Precussion gun is a better choice.

Another thing about the Flintlock you need to consider.
Flintlocks require Real Black Powder for the Pan, and for the Main Powder charge. The substitute powders like Pyrodex and 777 will usually misfire or not fire at all.
You need to find out if you can buy Real Black Powder in your area.
Pyrodex or 777 or Black powder can all be used in a precussion gun.
Flints are also sometimes difficult to find unless you want to order them thru a site on the Web. Most gun stores will carry precussion caps or they can order them for you.

what can you tell me about a wheellock pistol? I'm curious more than anything as to how common, where and when they were used, etc.
The Wheellock preceeded the Flintlock but was used by some people up thru the early 1800s.
It is said they fire faster than the Flintlock and this made them popular with target shooters up to the general acceptance of the precussion cap.
They are very complex and were (are) very expensive.
Many if not most of them use Iron Pyrites against the steel wheel to create the sparks for ignition.
You can find more information about them using the search feature or just brousing thru the Pre Flint Forum at this site.

By the way, A big Welcome to you from another Arizona member (In case you didn't know what "Zonie" stood for. )

 

Zonie gives excellent advice, and you should take it.

Just a couple of things I will add:

1) Cherry's has had a sale on their Pedersoli Kentucky pistols, finished, for $195. I don't know if they still have the sale going on, but trust me, that is a steal, and if I didn't already have one, I would have jumped on it.

2) Zonie mentions the delay when shooting flint and the real black powder limitations. If you can get real BP, I just wanted to throw out that my Pedersoli Kentucky .54 flintlock fires so fast that I can not tell the difference between it and a percussion when I use FFFg. I honestly think the gun fires before the flint is done scraping the frizzen... it's that fast.

3) My pistol is very accurate, within its limitations. The trigger is not a 6oz. target trigger... more like a 6lb trigger, but if you squeeze it, it still shoots good, and I'm finding the more I shoot it, the better the trigger gets.

4) You mentioned flinching when the pan ignites, and while I think that's an issue for first-time flinters shooting a rifle, the fact that you're holding a pistol at an arm's length completely takes that out of the equation. If you flinch shooting a flint pistol, it probably won't be due to the flash, but due to something else. Keep the loads light, and you will have little to no recoil, and no reason to flinch.

My biggest concern with you starting your BP obsession with a flintlock (don't let anyone tell you otherwise... it IS an obsession), is learning how to make it reliable. There are a lot of factors to making a flint fire reliably, and if you have little success to begin with it tends to get frustrating. I wouldn't want to see you get frustrated and think you got a dud pistol and take up cartridge shooting when the real problem is you're simply doing something incorrectly.

If you decide to do this, be sure to ask lots of questions here when you get started... one can overcome a LOT of frustration doing so, as there are hundreds of years of experience on this board, and most of us have learned the hard way, so you won't have to. :redthumb:

 

[cdg]

I want to thank everyone for their warm welcome, but my years around firearms have taught me that almost everyone in the sport is friendly. I will look into Pendersoli (please excuse my mispellings- I'll get better with this stuff as I research it more), IMO, and other brands besides Traditions, but it's nice to know that Traditions makes a decent piece, as their prices seem pretty good.

As for precision target shooting, this gun is only going to be used for play. I myself can shoot handguns with pretty reasonable accuracy, but I'm afraid I'm somewhat limited by rather poor vision. At 10 yeards with a stock modern handgun, I rarely miss. 15 is about as far as I can consistantly shoot accurately. When you put a target out at 25 yards, I can hit the target, but being unable to really see the bullseye in most cases makes it hard to really shoot accurately. Even my corrective lenses don't seem to fix that problem; generally makes one sight or the other out of focus.

Anyway enough of my lamentations, I shoot pretty well with a modern gun. My local gun shop (about 6 miles away) definately sells true gunpowder. He deals with a lot of classic firearms, so he's probably well supplied for other muzzleloading needs. Otherwise there's always mail-order...

I am going to go do more research on the history of the Kentucky pistol and post back more questions. If anybody has anything to add to this post, by all means please post it.

Oh, 1 more thing is that although I'm 17, I'm very patient with things. My best friend can give up on anything in 2 tries or less, but I will slug something out for months on end before I give up. Not to say I won't ask for help in that time, but I will continue trying to make something work until it finally does. So for now, I believe I will continue with my flintlock idea. Since I'm going to take thigns too seriously for now, I'm not too worried with how I will be able to shoot it. For a while it will be enought just to be able to shoot it...

 

[walruskid1]

go for it, a flint kentucky will be a lot of fun and a learning experience. :imo:

 

[hangfiretx]

CDG-

If you can afford it, consider the lyman's plains pistol. They run about 170$ or so from midsouth shooters supply. I'm very happy with mine, and I believe their better quality then the traditions or the cva hawkens.

Ive found mine loves non-traditional sabot loads, probably because it has a fast rate of twist. I used to ping a 9 inch plate off hand at 100 yards with knight rifle sabot loads in my lyman great plains pistol.

Ive had much better ignition success with black powder vs pyrodex in all my stuff, both pistol and rifle. If you can find black powder locally reasonably priced, use that instead of pyrodex.

Always snap off a few caps in your pistol prior to loading it, this burns any oil out of the nipple drum. I've had some oil in my nipple once or twice, and it makes getting that first shot to go off a real gripe. Some people squirt some dry gas or carbarator cleaner into the nipple about 30 min before shooting, to disolve/remove any oil residues, but i need to experiment with it.

At close range, in experienced hands, the lyman great plains pistol is a formidable weapon. In a pinch, I would trust my life to one, especially if you used a large conical bullet or knight rifle or other type sabot. I use 40 grains fffg in my pistol, and use a modified 2 hand shotgun type grip on the stock when i fire. I look right down the sight plane, and hold it in both hands, one gripping the bird beak end of the stock, and the other under the barrel.

Good luck with whatever you get. Always be well rested and focusing on what your doing when you handle any gun, especially black powder. Dont talk while loading. Talk once loaded. Theres no safety on these things, so pay attention and always point in a safe direction.

 

[bradmartin]

Have fun and know you'll always get good answers here. I've only been into the sport for under a year. It's so much fun. Let us all know how it goes for ya.

 

[mec]

I am new at flintlock shooting and don't get near the predictable reliability I expect from a caplock. I have shot a couple of Pedersoli Kentuckies - a 50 and a 54. The 54 had an ideal trigger pull right from the box while the 50 was heavy and had to be worked on to get it to the right weight. Both of these pistols show really great potential accuracy. I suspect the one lousy shot below came from a longer than average ignition time. The huge advantage of the pedersoli pistols is that they are currently made and spare parts are available.
The image posting capability just went away so, I will try a link:[url] http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30112&d=1129660421[/url]

 

[Bob Riegl]

Mec, don't be so hard on yourself---that 7 o'clock shot is a sign you "jerked" the trigger---defined as too much or too little trigger finger. When you are dealing with trigger pulls in xs of 3# the ability to hold and squeeze through the wobble comes from long hours of practise. I shoot bullseye pistol and some international pistol events and have been at it for over 42 years. A good trigger pull is not developed over night, nor is it genetic. Like getting to Carnegie Hall ---practise, practise. :hatsoff:

 

[mec]

the low shot as you mention is definately a sign of anticipation of the shot. I am capable of doing that from time to time but It is a fairly rare occurance with percussion revolvers or modern handguns. For some years, I shot NRA short course with revolvers and scored right on the cusp of expert/master.

The shot in the picture may be an example of poor trigger control or delayed ignition or most likely, a combination of both.

 

[mec]

for instance. This is a Lyman Plains caplock:[url] http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-2/949073/lyman25offhand.JPG[/url]

I drop a shot with it every now and then too- but not nearly as often

 

[Old Charlie]

I have the Lyman plains pistol with a .50 and .54 cal barrel. I also have the pedersoli Kentucky Flint lock in .50 cal. One shoots about as good as the other.
When I got the pedersoli The trigger pull was very hard! I put a wooden flint in it and dry fired it for a while and it smoothed out just fine. Also did wonders for my flinch.
Old Charlie

 

[kenneth strickland]

In answer to the flintlock or caplock choice, I have used both and learned that cleaning the barrel, nipple and or frizzen well before shooting helps reliability. Cleaning all oil and lubricants before loading even helps that first shot go off. i wipe the frizzen and flint clean after a few shots too. The flint needs to be sharp and aligned and tight too. Experience taught me these things; trial ;and error. The Lyman Plains pistol kit is easy and quick. DNR Sports is probably the best place to buy it.