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A flash in the pan...

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garandman

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...and other flintlock ignition issues.

(I did search the "Tips" thread, but there ALOT of stuff in there...figgered it would be easier to ask a direct Q )

Being new to flints, I was hoping some could help me set up the flint position, type of flint, best powder, amount / orientation of powder, "truing up" a flint, and anything else that would help maximize the probability of ignition.

Help greatly appreciated.
 
Pics of your flinted lock, and pics / vids of the kind / amount of spark that I should look for would be rgeatly appreciated.
 
IMHO, the “How to Shoot Flintlocks” article is, well, 'dated'. You can certainly get the basics but there are better ways. Here is how I set mine up and what you want to see. Two things I don't recommend is lead as a wrap and banking the prime away from the touch hole. As a matter of fact powder against the touch hole is best. The touch hole should be .070 and coned. You need real flints like Black English and preferably 4F powder. Do you absolutely need to follow my advice? No, you don't, flintlocks were designed by simple people and used by them. They are very forgiving and a multitude of practices will work.

IMG_5744.jpg


fallingflint.jpg


Sparks need to go into the pan.

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However if, like your thread title suggests, you are getting flash. You are not getting boom! If this is indeed the situation, you need to drill the touch hole to .070. You need to make sure it is clean and the gun is also clean. Really clean!
Hope this helps.
 
ebiggs, I respectfully disagree with you in regards to two of your points. First, opening the touch hole to .70 is not a panacea to ignition reliability, I have several rifles that are perfectly reliable and have never had the touch hole opened up. One of them has a .0625 touch hole and has never failed to ignite. While some of my other rifles have been drilled out to larger dimensions and are just as reliable but none needed to be opened to .070. In addition, I have found that lead wrap has worked much better for me in larger locks than leather.

I do completely concur with your statement; “They are very forgiving and a multitude of practices will work.”
 
To guide you in learning how to set your flint in the jaws, you need to be thinking about the GOAL you are wanting to achieve with that flint- making lots of sparks which are Thrown down into the flash pan, where, God willing, you remembered to put some powder! Think of it as " REVERSE ENGINEERING"!Sparks that are thrown forward og the pan, or dribble down the frizzen and land behind the pan wont be igniting the flash powder reliably- will they?

Lock geometry tends to control how you mount the flint in the haws- bevel up or bevel down. You want the edge of your flint to strke the face of the frizzen about 60-66% of the distance up from the heel of the frizzen, when the frizzen is closed. Any lower than that, and most frizzen will not snap open quickly enough to let the sparks go to the pan.

Set your cock at half cock, and look to see there is a gap of 1/32 to 1/16" beteen the edge of the flint, and the face f the frizzen. This allows the cock to move PAST the half cock notch before it strikes the face, yet allows enough to the flint to sit forward of the jaws to let you fire 20 or more shots before you have to move the flint forward again.

You want the flint to scrape steel from the Middle third of the face of the frizzen, snapping open when the flint reaches that bottom third position, so that the frizzen opens quickly and gives sufficient space in time to allow the sparks to be Thrown into the pan--NOT FALL into the pan! If you remove the springs from a lock, and move the parts by hand, slowly, you will quickly see that the cock moves n ONE ARC, while the frizzen moves in another.

Where the two meet, with a flint in place, creates a Pinching action that results- in a well tuned and set-up lock-- in the frizzen giving way to the heavier cock and snapping open out of the cock's way.

There are other techniques to apply in how you load the powder and ball in the barrel, how you improve transfer of the heat generated by the burning powder in the flashpan to ignite the powder in the barrel that contribute to faster ignition, but it all begins with getting the alignment of the edge of your flint located so it strikes the face of the frizzen in the correct place.

The angle of impact of the edge of the flint to the face of the frizzen at the POINT OF IMPACT is also important. Some locks are designed so that the only way you can get the AOI correct is my mounting the flint with the bevel down. Most sold here in the USA, and not made overseas, work correctly with the bevel up. As Ernie has shown many times here, you can sometime put an extra thick piece of leather between the bottom jaw and the flint wrap, which will raise the flint high enough to permit the desired Angle of Impact, and POI.

If you want specific help on your lock, you need to always tell us the make and model of your gun,or include a picture of the lock. There are different problems and answers for tuning LARGE(Musket),MEDIUM(rifle), and
SMALL(pistol/small rifle) Locks.

There are also different answers for barrel ignition problems based on whether your breech plug has a flat face, or has a "Patent-style" Breech with a powder chamber in its center.

The differences are what makes shooting flintlocks so much more interesting to do compared to other kinds of rifles. Successfully shooting a flintlock is an accomplishment to be proud about, as not just anybody knows how to do it. :hatsoff:
 
I also concur that the flash-hole doesn't need to be opened up to .070 and that lead works better to hold the flint at least in the larger locks.

I have an old L & R lock that has witnesses to me firing over 120 consecutive shots using the same flint, without adjustment, at a club shoot with 100% reliability; no misfires.
 
Sometimes I get flash, sometimes I get boom, sometimes I get nothing.

Been using 3F Goex for flash powder only cuz I got no 4F.

Another question -

The way you got the flint in the cock... seems to me you'd want to flip it over, so the bevelled edge makes as much contact as possible with teh frizzen. Not so?
 
welcome to the front end of the flintlock learning curve.

this is sort of like learning how to use a standard transmission ... once you get the feel of the clutch, it's pretty much something you do without thinking - until you hit that 'a ha!' threshold, however, the frustration level can get pretty intense.

try the various 'tricks' described, but do them only one at a time so that you will know which fix is having an effect and which does nothing for your situation.

as regards opening up the flash hole- i would advise holding off on opening up the touch hole until you've tried all the other fixes.

beware of shoving funky stuff into the touch hole by having the patch too wet when you swab between shots. also, get a vent pick and use it.

as regards the leather vs. lead flint wrap: i prefer lead, but it's a personal preference, and probably a more nuanced arguement than is pertinent here. never known a lock which would work with lead but not leather (not to say it isn't possible, just that i don't know about it ... heck there's a bunch of stuff i don't know about -- darn near everything if you ask my kids...) once you get the lock going, try leather and lead and see which one works for you.

seeing which one works for you is (if there is a 'key' to such things) the key to such things ... many will tell you that if you do thus-and-such, all your troubles will be over, your dog will come home, the bank will stop the reposession of your pick up truck, your mom will get out of prison, and you won't even have to play the counrty/western song backwards.

try it and see what works for you.
only change one variable at a time.
be methodical, be consistent.

OK- that's my tirade for the day...

anyway, welcome to the rockbanger fraternaty- once they get working, they're a ton of fun!


make good smoke! :thumbsup:
 
I do completely concur with your statement; “They are very forgiving and a multitude of practices will work.”

At least we are simpatico on that. And let me say I am certainly glad you have a method that works well for you. If this young fellow were more than a beginner, I may have also recommended some slightly different situations.
I find several different things do work in flintlocks, for instance the lead wraps. But it is more difficult to get lead right, so I usually tell a person starting out to just use leather. I use lead myself on a Kentucky long rife I own and it works great.
On the touch hole I will modify my statement to, it should be .067 to .070. But if he is having a "flash in the pan”, as he suggested, enlarging it to the max is indicated, I think.”
However I will not move off of placement of the powder away from the touch hole. I believe this to be total nonsense started by, who knows? Banking away is of no help what-so-ever.
Let's hope he picks up on some of this and gets shooting! There are just different ways to get someone started in flintlocks and the easiest is probably the best to start.

Now let's go shoot!
 
Just as another reference / food for thought, the vent liners I use all come from the factory with a .070" hole as standard.
Along with Goex 4F prime + black english flints + leather flint wraps, that combination has been completely reliable for me in T/C and Chambers locks...couldn't ask for better ignition.
Others mileage may vary.

090311HammerStallonChambersDeluxeSilerSUPERCROPPED.jpg
 
Another thing I noticed in my gun... the flash hole is actually angled - NOT at a 90 degree to the bore of the rifle.

Standard, or weird?
 
Not an authority at all but I would think the touch hole should normally be square to the pan.
However, unless it's severe it may not be a factor at all.
Larry Pletch has done much testing in this area so you might send him a PM...I think his ID is 'pletch'
 
The only flintlock I have with an angled touch hole is an India made model of an 1700's English Heavy Dragoon pistol. It's angled to clear the breech plug. It does go boom when it's suppose to. I must take issue with Ebiggs in regard to placement of the priming powder. I believe every lock/gun is different. You will have to try different combinations to find out what your gun likes. I have a rifle that prefers banking away from the touch hole. I have a fowler that prefers right smack dab in the middle of the pan. (If you look closely at the first picture he posted, main part of the prime is banked away from the touch hole.) I have found that running a touch hole pick in the touch hole before priming helps a lot in avoiding just a flash in the pan. Your pick should be narrow enough to go thru to the opposite side of the barrel. This may require some filing or sanding to get the shape right, or you could just a correct size of wire (paperclips work most of the time). I have a horn powder measure which has a tine near the opening of the measure. I just glued a piece of brass wire long enough to reach the other side of the barrel to the tip of the tine and I use that to insure the hole is clear and as much of the main charge is exposed to the flash. I've had people tell me if they didn't see the flash or smoke from the pan, they would swear I had a cap lock. Good luck and get some pictures up.
 
Ebiggs in regard to placement of the priming powder.

David Hoffman, I can assure you the powder is not banked away. But in actual use, who knows where the prime ends up? Unless you are very careful to prime your flintlock and move carefully to the line, your powder gets moved around unsettled. Think of a hunter walking through the woods. Don't you suspect the gun gets some tossing around? The powder will not stay banked. It won't be anywhere you thought you put it. This banking powder is a myth that has largely been proved scientificly to be slower not quicker. Plus several unscientific tests I have done with shooters not knowing where or how their gun was primed. If you prefer banking your gun away, by all means do so.

”¦ they would swear I had a cap lock.

If I had a dollar every time a flintlock shooter has made this statement, I could retire! Wait a minute, I am retired. And they all have their own “best” way to do things. I suspect it comes largely because most people assume and expect flintlocks to be slow. Probably because of movies.

It isn't even arguable that larger touch holes are more “reliable”. If you take it to extreme you have to agree. Let's say the touch hole was ¼ inch vs. 1/64th inch. Which would good off more consistently? The trick is to find the compromise between what is reliable and what is reasonable for the rest of the flintlock's requirements.
Remember our task here is to get a new flintlock shooter going, not to debate the finer choices of how to shoot a flintlock.
 
garandman said:
Another thing I noticed in my gun... the flash hole is actually angled - NOT at a 90 degree to the bore of the rifle.

Standard, or weird?

Weird, yes, but probably not an issue.

Sometimes I get flash, sometimes I get boom, sometimes I get nothing.

Been using 3F Goex for flash powder only cuz I got no 4F.

Another question -

The way you got the flint in the cock... seems to me you'd want to flip it over, so the bevelled edge makes as much contact as possible with teh frizzen. Not so?

Sometimes I get flash, ”¦ Open up the touch hole to .070. This will fix that.
sometimes I get boom ”¦ Success!
sometimes I get nothing. Nothing means no flash and no spark, right?
From Mr. Vallandigham,
Set your cock at half cock, and look to see there is a gap of 1/32 to 1/16" beteen the edge of the flint, and the face f the frizzen
From Mr. Vallandigham,
You want the flint to scrape steel from the (upper) Middle third of the face of the frizzen
You want to use real flints like Black English.


The way you got the flint in the cock ...
You want the flint to be at a nearly 60 degree angle to the frizzen and about 2/3rd of the way up.

If you are doing everything as I have suggested, and still not getting any sparks, you have a more serious problem. Most likely a poorly hardened frizzen. It will need to be replaced with a known good one.

Been using 3F Goex for flash powder ...
Not an issue. 3F is fine.
 
use your shirttail or a dry patch to wipe that frizzen and flint before you shoot. just a little lube or dirt will reduce the sparks a lot
 
garandman said:
...and other flintlock ignition issues.

(I did search the "Tips" thread, but there ALOT of stuff in there...figgered it would be easier to ask a direct Q )

Being new to flints, I was hoping some could help me set up the flint position, type of flint, best powder, amount / orientation of powder, "truing up" a flint, and anything else that would help maximize the probability of ignition.

Help greatly appreciated.

Too little powder in the pan is the classic reson for flashes. Then dirty vents, improperly designed liners. Bore made wet by improper wipeing.

There is no truth to the myth that piling priming away from the vent helps. It SLOWS ignition if anything. Having the vent covered with priming powder makes no difference in speed (another myth) but may increase reliability.
Very small amounts of powder are the worst possible answer and can turn a reliable rifle into something the owner thinks needs to be reworked when in reality its operator error.
This has been tested in detail with electronic timers.
So buy French flints (they are HC BTW for pre-1800 English flaked flints are not), use FFFF powder and use enough to fill the pan about 3/4 full or a little more.
If using a GOOD vent liner properly installed the vent need not be larger than 1/16". If its a plain drilled vent then it will need to be .078 at least and probably .093 (3/32").

Why FFFF? Its easier to light, gives faster flame propagation and higher heat impulse. Crushed powder is a no-no. Powder finer than Swiss Null-B may SLOW flame spread so grinding powder to dust to make priming is counter productive.


Dan
 
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