a new historic wad

[George]

I’ve collected quite a few examples of types of wads used in smoothbores during the 18th century, from a wide variety of sources.

cork
stamped Fearnought or Shepherds Cloth
brown paper rubbed soft
punched hat
punched felt
moss from apple trees
Spanish moss
tow
punched leather
punched cards
punched linen, cotton or woolen cloth
green moss
leaves
punched pasteboard
shavings of green wood
cloth torn from a shirt
hard wadd

I have found a new one. Thomas Page did experiments measuring penetration of birdshot into cubes of clay with various guns and distances, and at one point said, “The wad used in these experiments was stamped out of list.”

List is interesting stuff, and shows up in a wide variety of uses. It’s what we today call the selvedge of a piece of cloth, the edge which is woven in such a way as to prevent raveling. In the 18th century it was a much wider, heavier and stiffer band than with modern weaving and ran down both sides of the cloth. It was sometimes pressed into use in a variety of ways after being cut from the cloth. It was tough, durable stuff, apparently suitable for making slippers and gun cases. I even have an item telling of its being used as a collar for a pet flying squirrel. That’s versatile.

I would think it might work well for wadding, but where are you going to get some? :wink: .

Spence

 

[Britsmoothy]

Is not ticking similar Spence?

B.

 

[duelist1954]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[George]

I get the impression list is thicker and more tightly woven, but I can see where ticking might be similar.

Spence

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Interesting I've always heard that tow was a standard wadding material of the time. Seems pricey though, at least from the sources I've been able to come up with.

 

[Zonie]

The things you learn here on the MLF.

As Mr. Page was testing shotgun wadding, I figured "list" would be the big pile of the paper records he had made while he was testing the various types of wadding.

"Well, what the hell. None of those worked worth a darn and that's sure a big pile of paper.
No reason to let it go to waste, so I think I'll just wad it up and test it too."

:wink: :grin:

 

[Skychief]

:haha: I could relate to that Zonie!

 

[azmntman]

:idunno: maybe one could take some ticking and have the Mrs sew the hell outta it to "reinforce" it and make thicker? Like back and forth close as possible, like create a new layer? May be easier to watch her working with a pattern er what not not, get the jist of it and do it yerself while she at a hen party or the hair salon. DONT screw up the singer tho er new wad l' rank way down on yer trouble list :shocked2:

 

[BillinOregon]

Wonder if you could begin to duplicate the performance of list by starching the heck out of some heavy cloth.

 

[rdstrain49]

I've used some light to mid weight canvas that sounds similar. Results were overall good.

 

[Billnpatti]

List is interesting stuff, and shows up in a wide variety of uses. It’s what we today call the selvedge of a piece of cloth, the edge which is . In the 18th century it was a woven in such a way as to prevent ravelingmuch wider, heavier and stiffer band than with modern weaving and ran down both sides of the cloth. It was sometimes pressed into use in a variety of ways after being cut from the cloth. It was . I even have an item telling of its being used as a collar for a pet flying squirrel. tough, durable stuff, apparently suitable for making slippers and gun casesThat’s versatile.

Spence

Well, Spence, we have a few clues for us to come up with a modern approximation of "List". It needs to be a heavy fabric such as canvas or denim and it needs to be fixed in such a was as to prevent raveling. Those seem to be the primary clues. I might suggest a heavy weight 100% cotton rip-stop fabric..... if such exists, I don't know. Failing that my next suggestion is that you pick a moderately heavy fabric. Then decide how big you want your wads. Mark off the fabric in squares of the desired size in a checker board fashion. Once you have the lines drawn on your fabric use a sewing machine to sew double lines on either side of the lines that you have drawn. With that done, you will have done what is needed to cause the fabric to resist raveling. Carefully cut between the sewn lines so that you end up with wads or patches with the edges sewn. Of course this will give you square wads. If you require round wads sewing is almost completely out of the question. In that case, you could heavily starch the fabric to prevent raveling and give it more body and then punch out the round wads with an arch punch. I have never put a piece of starched fabric in any of my rifles but I think it could leave a residue in your bore. But, being starch, I would think it should come out with a swab with a wet patch. I think this may give you a modern approximation of "list". These are my best guesses. More than that, I cannot say.

 

[George]

Sound's like a lot of work, to me. :grin:

It would be a lot more simple and less labour intensive to follow Page's advice in some of his other writings:

“It appears from various other trials besides these, which I have made, that the shot fly as regularly, or more so, and with as much force without any wad betwixt the powder and shot, as it does with wad only. ”˜Tis difficult to keep the shot from mixing with the powder; and when it does, that will affect it: but it proves this much at least, that it does not signify how thin your wad is betwixt the powder and shot, so it does but keep them from mixing."

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

I run into "list" or selvedge edges all the time...From canvas that I buy to pillow ticking for my patches.......I'm kid of surprised that others haven't... :shocked2:
The edges are annoying I cut them off and throw them away or make char cloth out of them...

A selvedge edge from wool would probably be ideal...
I guess the old boys back then were just as resourceful as today.....anything not of value become musket wadding....

I don't think I have any on hand and I'm not going to go look but If I remember correctly the selvedge edge on ticking is actually thinner, but stiffer than the parent material.

 

[George]

.... If I remember correctly the selvedge edge on ticking is actually thinner, but stiffer than the parent material.

I've seen that on ticking, but I think it may be a strip of 'sizing' or starch used to stiffen and stabilize the edge, not a woven area.

Since the entire method of commercial weaving is so different now, I'd be very surprised if list of the colonial type is ever done today.

Spence

 

[TC Tommy]

This is the first time I've heard of list. I bought several different thickness's of ticking and one is unusable. It's thick and stiff as heck, you can hold it out like cardboard from a shoe box.

 

[rushlake1]

"I would think it might work well for wadding, but where are you going to get some? " .


Spence.....At the "list store" Of Course. :wink:

I would sew them..that would be the quickest.

 

[Grenadier1758]

And of course Spence, we have your topic from a year (4/22/16) ago:

In his 1727 poem describing how to load a fowler, Markland says:

“Now search for Tow, and some old Saddle pierce: No Wadding lies so close or drives so fierce.”

Gallons of virtual ink have been used in discussing what 'Saddle pierce' is, with no consensus that I'm aware of.

Two main ideas seem favored, leather wads of bore size punched out of old saddles, or the stuffing of old saddles which has been felted by years of rump pounding.

I'm always on the lookout for clues which might apply, and a possible one turned up recently. Raedwald posted a link to the thesis of David Miller, Ballistics of 17th Century Muskets, and in it Miller quotes Grose, F. 1801 as saying, “... such softe haire as they stuff saddles with... this soldier must use when time permits."

Could this 'softe haire' be what the old boy called Saddle pierce?

Spence

Most likely your latest list probably includes the tow and felt associated with the stuffing of saddles.

 

[George]

Thanks for the reminder, I had forgotten about 'saddle pierce', whatever that was. In a discussion since then, the question came up, why did Markland recommend both tow and saddle pierce. It was suggested that saddle pierce was punched leather wads, and that they were used in conjunction with tow. That rang a bell with me, because I've been tinkering with tow wadding for some time, and, based on the recoil and penetration, I'm convinced that you get a better seal and a stronger shot if you put some kind of barrier between powder and tow. I've used punched cards and brown paper OP with tow, and it certainly seems true that, using that combination, as Markland said, "No Wadding lies so close or drives so fierce". :grin:

Spence

 

[BillinOregon]

I always assumed one pierced an old saddle for the leather. Hadn't thought about the felted stuffing.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Since the entire method of commercial weaving is so different now, I'd be very surprised if list of the colonial type is ever done today.

Spence

Apparently all of our old looms were sold and shipped to Japan and are still used today to make Blue jeans with selvedge edges...Apparently the jeans themselves are of a stiffer and tighter weave than what we normally get here in the US.