A Warning about Cleaning and a Question

[springfield art]

No takers on explaining why it is thought to be so important to get the bore down to bare metal before shooting, eh? Is it that no one knows? Considering all the ink spent in claiming the need for it and all the money, time and effort put into making sure it happens, I'd think some kind of reason for it would be common knowledge.

This same conversation has been repeated many, many times over the last four decades, and I've asked this same question more times than I can remember, but no reasonable answer has been offered. Maybe there isn't one.

Spence

I think you're onto something!

 

[springfield art]

Thanks, Col Batguano. I only have one rifle with a patent breech, and I make a point of running a pipe cleaner through it at the end of every cleaning. I use paste style lubes, not oils, generally, so oil accumulating in the breech is a non-problem. I have to say, anyone using so much oil that puddles collect in the breech doesn't need brake pad cleaner, he needs to stop making puddles.
Powder clinging to oil on the bore seems a pretty unlikely reason to need brake pad cleaner, to me. Surely any wads or patch used in the load would scrape the bore clean of any stuck grains.
Part of my confusion about the need to start every shoot with bare metal, not a trace of oil, is that for the majority of us shooting patched round ball the last thing we do in the loading sequence is run a greasy patch down the bore, wiping the grease on it all the way down. How does that work? Is the next fad cleaning thing going to be to flush the bore with brake pad cleaner, acetone, benzene or some such extreme solvent after the ball is rammed home? I for one won't be surprised to hear that recommenced. I know there are already some guys who run a jag and patch down after loading to wipe away that ultra-thin film of lube in case it does....what, exactly?

It seems to me that a lot of shooters make this a much too complicated game. You shouldn't have to have a degree in chemistry to shoot a ML, or a hazard suit with gloves and goggles to load your gun. It's really much, much more simple than a lot of guys would have you believe. An example... in 2012 I killed the one and only buck I have shot with my .40 caliber flintlock. That gun gets very little use, these days. I make no special effort at cleaning and lubing it when I put it away, and it goes for years without being shot. I took it off the wall, loaded it in the usual way with no special attention to the bore. I shot this buck....
View attachment 69405

....and in the report I posted to the forum I said, "Instant ignition, and I don't think I've shot that rifle for five years." That was true, I had not shot it for that long, I didn't feel the need to shoot it before the hunt to prove it would fire, I knew it would.

As Jaron Lanier said, "The arts and humanities (and lets not forget the religions!) have been perpetually faced with the challenge of making simple things complicated." I'm sure he would have included muzzleloader shooting in that if he had known it was a thing.

Sorry to go on and on. Finis.

Spence

Classic hunting photo; thanks.

 

[Mulebrain]

Here is what I'm using to clean my rifles:

For very dirty bore:

1 part ammonia
8 parts demineralized water
1 part methylated spirits or isopropyl alcohol
3 parts black soap (Olive oil soap) or Murphy's soap (may-be concentrated could perhaps be better for but never tried it)...
Then I clean with some patches and when the patches stay cleans and white, I dry with some other patches.
Wonder lube or TC Bore butter for lubing.

I mostly clean with hot water and dish soap and Wonder lube for lubing, never any lube from petrochemistry.

About the touch hole and just for me, it seems at the right place...

Wholly crap that's a lot of stuff for cleaning a bore. I think I would go nuts

I think I will stick with water and a bucket

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks, Col Batguano. I only have one rifle with a patent breech, and I make a point of running a pipe cleaner through it at the end of every cleaning. I use paste style lubes, not oils, generally, so oil accumulating in the breech is a non-problem. I have to say, anyone using so much oil that puddles collect in the breech doesn't need brake pad cleaner, he needs to stop making puddles.
Powder clinging to oil on the bore seems a pretty unlikely reason to need brake pad cleaner, to me. Surely any wads or patch used in the load would scrape the bore clean of any stuck grains.
Part of my confusion about the need to start every shoot with bare metal, not a trace of oil, is that for the majority of us shooting patched round ball the last thing we do in the loading sequence is run a greasy patch down the bore, wiping the grease on it all the way down. How does that work? Is the next fad cleaning thing going to be to flush the bore with brake pad cleaner, acetone, benzene or some such extreme solvent after the ball is rammed home? I for one won't be surprised to hear that recommenced. I know there are already some guys who run a jag and patch down after loading to wipe away that ultra-thin film of lube in case it does....what, exactly?

It seems to me that a lot of shooters make this a much too complicated game. You shouldn't have to have a degree in chemistry to shoot a ML, or a hazard suit with gloves and goggles to load your gun. It's really much, much more simple than a lot of guys would have you believe. An example... in 2012 I killed the one and only buck I have shot with my .40 caliber flintlock. That gun gets very little use, these days. I make no special effort at cleaning and lubing it when I put it away, and it goes for years without being shot. I took it off the wall, loaded it in the usual way with no special attention to the bore. I shot this buck....
View attachment 69405

....and in the report I posted to the forum I said, "Instant ignition, and I don't think I've shot that rifle for five years." That was true, I had not shot it for that long, I didn't feel the need to shoot it before the hunt to prove it would fire, I knew it would.

As Jaron Lanier said, "The arts and humanities (and lets not forget the religions!) have been perpetually faced with the challenge of making simple things complicated." I'm sure he would have included muzzleloader shooting in that if he had known it was a thing.

Sorry to go on and on. Finis.

Spence

It's not just muzzle loading that has issues with carbon fouling. I hear the same thing about petroleum products in black powder cartridge shooting

Thanks, Col Batguano. I only have one rifle with a patent breech, and I make a point of running a pipe cleaner through it at the end of every cleaning. I use paste style lubes, not oils, generally, so oil accumulating in the breech is a non-problem. I have to say, anyone using so much oil that puddles collect in the breech doesn't need brake pad cleaner, he needs to stop making puddles.
Powder clinging to oil on the bore seems a pretty unlikely reason to need brake pad cleaner, to me. Surely any wads or patch used in the load would scrape the bore clean of any stuck grains.
Part of my confusion about the need to start every shoot with bare metal, not a trace of oil, is that for the majority of us shooting patched round ball the last thing we do in the loading sequence is run a greasy patch down the bore, wiping the grease on it all the way down. How does that work? Is the next fad cleaning thing going to be to flush the bore with brake pad cleaner, acetone, benzene or some such extreme solvent after the ball is rammed home? I for one won't be surprised to hear that recommenced. I know there are already some guys who run a jag and patch down after loading to wipe away that ultra-thin film of lube in case it does....what, exactly?

It seems to me that a lot of shooters make this a much too complicated game. You shouldn't have to have a degree in chemistry to shoot a ML, or a hazard suit with gloves and goggles to load your gun. It's really much, much more simple than a lot of guys would have you believe. An example... in 2012 I killed the one and only buck I have shot with my .40 caliber flintlock. That gun gets very little use, these days. I make no special effort at cleaning and lubing it when I put it away, and it goes for years without being shot. I took it off the wall, loaded it in the usual way with no special attention to the bore. I shot this buck....
View attachment 69405

....and in the report I posted to the forum I said, "Instant ignition, and I don't think I've shot that rifle for five years." That was true, I had not shot it for that long, I didn't feel the need to shoot it before the hunt to prove it would fire, I knew it would.

As Jaron Lanier said, "The arts and humanities (and lets not forget the religions!) have been perpetually faced with the challenge of making simple things complicated." I'm sure he would have included muzzleloader shooting in that if he had known it was a thing.

Sorry to go on and on. Finis.

Spence

It's not only in muzzle loading circles that I hear of petroleum products causing tar and carbon fouling issues. It also is a common theme in black powder cartridge shooting where one probably fires two or three times as many rounds per season as happens with muzzle loaders. These guys are meticulous about anything that promotes consistency as they are firing out to 1000 yards where small things really make a statement one would never notice at most muzzle loading shot distances.
It makes sense in both venues for consistencies sake to clean the barrel to bare steel and then lube the bore for the first shot with the lube used on the patch or bullet. It may be a spit patch for lube but the barrel for the first shot should be as near the same condition from the get go as the rest of the shots will be in. A layer of burned on petroleum under the fouling is not going to promote consistency.
I do quite a bit of barrel lapping and have found this will usually make a barrel that looks perfect but has stopped shooting, perk right up. I believe the reason is that it strips off carbon fouling that is often hard to detect without a good bore scope.
The old ways are not always the best, as some like to think. The old timers had just as many prejudices and false notions as we do now and were not alway correct in their thinking. Some of those incorect notions have been improved on as we learn more over time.

 

[hanshi]

I do use alcohol, in the bores and not in me, every time I clean the barrel. Doing that assures the bore is dry of moisture and oil prior to swabbing with Barricade.

 

[GregCSarver]

For years I've used a highly specialized chemical substance to clean my black powder guns. I have guns that range from El Cheapo Lymans to hand crafted Longrifles. This formula, dihydrogen oxide, is pretty readily available in most places. Sometimes I'll heat it up but most times not. When used properly it always works. After cleaning with dihydrogen oxide and making sure the metal surfaces that have contacted this chemical are fully dry, I follow with any oil available. in thirty years I've never had one spot of trust. I strongly suggest anyone who shoots blackpowder guns acquire some dihydrogen oxide as soon as possible and clean with that and that alone.

 

[GregCSarver]

No takers on explaining why it is thought to be so important to get the bore down to bare metal before shooting, eh? Is it that no one knows? Considering all the ink spent in claiming the need for it and all the money, time and effort put into making sure it happens, I'd think some kind of reason for it would be common knowledge.

This same conversation has been repeated many, many times over the last four decades, and I've asked this same question more times than I can remember, but no reasonable answer has been offered. Maybe there isn't one.

Spence

Spence, I never wipe the supposed oil before loading. Never had a misfire.

 

[GregCSarver]

Wholly crap that's a lot of stuff for cleaning a bore. I think I would go nuts

I think I will stick with water and a bucket

amen!!!

 

[Flintandsteel]

Yep ! I prefer dihydrogen, monoxide as well.

 

[Beaver Trapper]

Here is what I'm using to clean my rifles:

For very dirty bore:

1 part ammonia
8 parts demineralized water
1 part methylated spirits or isopropyl alcohol
3 parts black soap (Olive oil soap) or Murphy's soap (may-be concentrated could perhaps be better for but never tried it)...
Then I clean with some patches and when the patches stay cleans and white, I dry with some other patches.
Wonder lube or TC Bore butter for lubing.

I mostly clean with hot water and dish soap and Wonder lube for lubing, never any lube from petrochemistry.

About the touch hole and just for me, it seems at the right place...

I used Bore Butter as a lube but it froze sold when we hunted deer in December and rabbits January and February. Since then I make my own with beeswax, olive oil and a little Murphy's Oil Soap (it makes the lube fluff up)

 

[Beaver Trapper]

Well i tell ya for years the only thing i use for removing oil from the bore prior to dumping in my powder is plain old RUBBING ALCOHOL. I prefer the 90% plus stuff. This has been workin for me since the 70’s.... just put some on a cleanin patch and run down the bore. Removes all oil residue and evaporates pretty darn quick. Plus its a good thing to have in your shootin bag/box in case of a cut/injury. Lots cheaper than carb cleaner, brake cleaner, or whaterever else ya’all might come up with. Try it ya just might like it.

I saw a video on YouTube where Mike Belliveau was carrying those pre-packaged alcohol swabs with him to clean the barrel. These are easily found in most pharmacies and don't take any room in your bag

 

[Livbucks]

Yep ! I prefer dihydrogen, monoxide as well.

Just be very careful when handling that stuff!

 

[Flintandsteel]

In case some haven’t realized yet...... dihydrogen monoxide is WATER,
It is and always will be, the ONLY thing you need to clean black powder fouling.
Thats why it’s called the Universal Solvent.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Water is all you need for black powder fouling. However, if you use an oil or grease based lubricant, you need some form of a grease cutting detergent to remove the oil or grease based combination of fouling and that squirt of dish washing detergent is what is needed.

 

[Livbucks]

In case some haven’t realized yet...... dihydrogen monoxide is WATER,
It is and always will be, the ONLY thing you need to clean black powder fouling.
Thats why it’s called the Universal Solvent.

Whats crazy is that although you can drink that, soaking your body in it for too long can make your skin fall off.

 

[Pete G]

Whats crazy is that although you can drink that, soaking your body in it for too long can make your skin fall off.

Same thing with Jack Daniels

 

[SOLANCO]

Oil and related chemicals, petroleum solvents, kerosene based retail products, all that stuff causes problems when used to excess. In the case of off topic cartridge firearms, the primers can become contaminated and fail to fire. A similar effect is observed with blackpowder firearms when oils or solvents dampen the powder charge.

It begs the question, really. If you store firearms in a stable environment, even uncoated steel will not corrode. A humid environment, and enclosed space, and in particularly wide temperature swings are a big contributor. A cold steel barrel brought into a warmer, higher humidity location will have condensation form on its surfaces.

"Rubbing alcohol" as mentioned should be a really effective degreaser and also remove corrosive salt residues. Naptha or "lighter fluid" works great at removing every trace of oil or grease and evaporates very quickly leaving no residue behind. But I still maintain any gun kept in a reasonable indoor location needs very little oil or grease in the first place. Excess does no good anyway, and just wastes money.

Air conditioning and any kind of hot air heat suck moisture out of the air in your home. Some people, including sometimes me, need to apply a lotion as the air in their homes gets so dry in peak heating.
You can take a weapon stored at 70 outside into cold air and not be too concerned. Take the same 70 degree weapon out into a humid hot day and moisture will condense on any relatively chilly surface it can reach. Prepare and maintain accordingly.

 

[SOLANCO]

For years I've used a highly specialized chemical substance to clean my black powder guns. I have guns that range from El Cheapo Lymans to hand crafted Longrifles. This formula, dihydrogen oxide, is pretty readily available in most places. Sometimes I'll heat it up but most times not. When used properly it always works. After cleaning with dihydrogen oxide and making sure the metal surfaces that have contacted this chemical are fully dry, I follow with any oil available. in thirty years I've never had one spot of trust. I strongly suggest anyone who shoots blackpowder guns acquire some dihydrogen oxide as soon as possible and clean with that and that alone.

ROFL!!!!

 

[SOLANCO]

Just be very careful when handling that stuff!

Absolutely! It can sink a battleship!!!!

 

[OldSmoky1967]

I think what is happening is the brake cleaner is not de-solving the carbon fouling on the breech face that builds up until it covers over the flash hole. I had the same happen to mine a few weeks ago until I got a scraper down bore and cleaned it out. I use water and a bit of dish soap for general bore cleaning but started to get hang fires after about 30 shots of dry brushing instead of wet wiping every few shots , in a match.
It does look like your flash hole is a bit far forward but I think if you switch back to water cleaning and scraping the breech face your trouble will go away. I lube with Gunzilla oil as a final protective coat after the warm soapy water clean and clear water rinse, followed by WD wipe to displace any moisture in the pores or groove corners. The Gunzilla has no water or petroleum in it and works pretty good as a cleaner but testing has shown water still works better for de-solving fouling. It does however work very well as a bore protector.

I had the same thing happen when cleaning with a solvent. The was a good bit of breech build up, until scraped. Nothing beats really hot water! However, I use bear grease for a lube/rust preventer on my original Brown Bess. Works a treat!