AARGGGG!! Helicoil GM

[moose30273]

Ok Just got a new Green Mountain barrel today. When I looked at the nipple I saw I had the helicoil in the bolster. Question, How big of a deal is this really? Yeah it stinks that a new product is substandard (is it?). However, I do not want to have to wait weeks or months for a replacement. Have not yet started to throw things. Is there a home fix? Why were the coils used in the first place? Hole drilled too big? What thread pitch is the helicoil installed in? Can I drill and tap to a 5/16 x 24 musket nipple?

 

[Kentuckywindage]

hey at least they put the right nipple in it right?

They have a new batch out there with the american thread BP and an italian size nipple :rotf:

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Ok Just got a new Green Mountain barrel today. When I looked at the nipple I saw I had the helicoil in the bolster.

Well, they recently had a recall as US-threaded nipples were installed on metric-threaded tapped threads, or some scenario like that.

Having installed many Heli-Coil over the years, I wouldn't be worried about it, if at all. Still, it was new ... I would have wished to be informed about it.

 

[ToddB]

Allot of parts I have made for the aircraft industry call for Helicoils installed. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Birddog6]

Personally.......... I would send it back. I would consider it a Second or Repaired one & would expect at least 25% off the regular price.

Why don't ya call them & tell them the one you received has a helicoil in it, which you consider a Second or repaired barrel........ You didn't pay for a second or repaired one, did ya ? So ask them to replace it with one that doesn't have a helicoil. They won't do any more than say no & if they do say no, you are only out a phone call.

If they don't have one without a helicoil, call Tip Curtis (615)654-4445 or Cains Outdoors & see if they have one (without a helicoil) and see what the price difference is. If barrel & price are acceptable, buy it & return the other one to Grn. Mountain.

:thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Agree 100%...call GM, speak to Kerri, tell her...repeat: tell her...you need a prepaid pick up label sent to you to take this repaired barrel back...that you will not accept one with a helicoil.

Both Cains Outdoor and Tip Curtis (probably others) sent all their helicoil barrels back to GM...refused to sell them to customers.

There are a few casual no risk applications for repairs made with helicoils, but one of them is NOT a corrosive black powder residue environment, with 10,000 PSI underneath a nipple which is a steel projectile right in front of your brain pan!

Don't let your eagarness trump safety.

 

[Zonie]

moose30273
First off, if the Helicoil is installed correctly it will be as strong as or stronger than a new barrel.

If you decide to keep it there are a few things to look for.
First, at the bottom of a helicoil there is a small "tang" that extends across the bottom of it. This "tang" is there to engage the driver for installation. It should be broken off and gone so you shouldn't be able to see it.

Second, some of the helicoils are quite long and if one of these was used it may be blocking part or all of the flame channel hole that connects the nipple with the breech.
If this flame channel is below the bottom of the helicoil there should be no real problem.

Another potential problem with helicoils is that if they were not epoxied in place they may unscrew when you try to remove a stuck nipple.

No, the threads that the helicoil screws into are not standard. They are a special size that only fits helicoils. There is no bolt, screw or nipple that will mate with a hole that was tapped for a helicoil unless the helicoil is installed.

If the supplier will take the barrel back and replace it with a unrepaired barrel that would be your best option. If they won't, check the blockage of the flame channel. If it is partially blocked by the helicoil then be more insistent with them.

 

[shooyer_250]

screw thread inserts, whew, thank you Mr Webster...larn't me sumpthin nu tooday, yup...lee

 

[mykeal]

Helicoils themselves are not an inherently bad thing. I used them in the head bolt holes in Mickey Thompson racing engines with great success in the 70's and 80's, and I've not yet seen an application with heavier loads than that - certainly higher than a nipple flash channel. Higher pressures perhaps, but not higher loads.

And has been mentioned, helicoils have many standard applications in the aircraft industry; in fact, that's where I got the equipment I used.

The problem here is that your brand new barrel is not a brand new barrel. Yes, it hasn't been shot or used in a rifle yet (presumably), but it HAS been repaired, and you didn't pay for a repaired barrel. They need to either send you a new one OR provide a significant price discount.

I personally don't see a significant safety issue (presuming they used the correct helicoil and installed it properly), but there is clearly an issue with substituting a repaired item for a new one without your permission - that's unethical.

 

[Capt. Fred]

It's the ethical aspect that would bug me. Maybe they sent this particular barrel to you by mistake but if not they should have explained the situation before you plunked your money down. Just my opinion but I'd be really ticked off if they sent me a repaired barrel as new.

 

[rootsy]

Use helicoils and solid thread inserts all of the time in design and machine building. No complaints and no issues.

Dimensional issues should be verified to make sure that thread isn't blocking the flame channel, etc. Helicoils are designed to be self locking, so once they go in, and that tang is broken off they are supposed to be there to stay. Little extra insurance never hurt anyone though.

Ethically... I'd send it back. This was GM's way of "saving" a barrel that they felt (somehow) would be acceptable to sell to the public. By not using the helicoil they would have had a whole lot more work (read less profit) in the product.

In my business... If something is machined or manufactured incorrectly, the customer is informed and asked for a deviation. If no deviation is allowable the part is re-manufactured... just the way it is... Dealing with the general public is an entirely different ballgame than dealing with corporations... I honestly cannot believe someone at GM though this would be a solution that would pass muster outside of their facility.

 

[Birddog6]

From what I have seen in the industry for ? 35 years, a Helicoil is used in metal that will not hold threads well because they will be put in & out allot & the metal will wear easily (such as in aluminum or cast) or because the hole has been misdrilled or wallowed out. 95% of the time if you see a helicoil in something, it is in aluminum because it can't stand the in & out wear & tear of bolts like steel can.

However, this instance is just a manufacturing error & the holes were misdrilled. They dang sure didn't put helicoils in there to benefit the customer, they are trying to recoup a big $ loss.......

Now, will it hold ? Probably, if installed right. And I am certain they tested some of them for liability sake.

But it all boils down to the fact they sold the guy a Second or a Repair & didn't inform him of that. :nono:

So the barrel needs to go back, IMHO.

 

[moose30273]

Thanks for the input. I just shipped the barrel off. Getting a refund. Might take another swing at Green Mountain in a year or so. I do not blame them. They issued a recall and stated there was a problem. It is just the hassle of the whole thing.

 

[roundball]

"...presuming they used the correct helicoil and installed it properly..."

This is one of things that bothers me most about their approach to this latest recall.

GM has been manufacturing BP barrels for quite a number of years now and a simple drilling / tapping operation should be a very simple routine operation...yet they've had defects at least twice...this is not the first recall they've made due to D&T defects.
Four years ago the recall included a .58cal Flint barrel of mine and they replaced the breech plug because the thread height and taper wasn't right.
Using up so many of their comparatively expensive breech plugs caused them to start repairing breechplugs with helicoils instead of replacing them.

And a major unknown to me about their helicoil repair activity is this:

If they screwed up something that should have been very routine like normal D&T of threads...at least twice now in the past 5 years that we know about....how on earth could we dare conclude that they have correctly done this completely out of the ordinary, not routine helicoil adaptation.

 

[ToddB]

I don't think drilling and tapping was the problem. Someone was putting the wrong nipples in.

 

[smokehouseman]

Another consideration you might take into account is resale value of gun or barrel should you decide at sometime you wanted to sell it. The next buyer may look at it in the same light as those who consider it a "repaired barrel". Don't think you'll ever be happy unless you get the barrel you intended to buy. :2

 

[roundball]

I don't think drilling and tapping was the problem. Someone was putting the wrong nipples in.

The D&T I was referring to was their first recall problem 4-5 years ago.

This latest nipple problem I referenced with my comment about holding it up to a light.

Personally, I wonder if there's more to this recall than just a 25 cent nipple