Accidental Discharge Need Help

[Kapow]

I'd rather put this out there than keep it quiet to save embarrasment. It may save someone, including me, from a lethal situation.

Today I was hunting with my Lyman GPR caplock. I put the sneak on a stag of a lifetime. I had him feeding with his does broadside at 50 yards. I had the video camera set up and rolling. As I brought the rifle around off my shoulder it discharged. It was about a foot from my ear and vertical. I don't know who got the biggest shock, me or the deer.

It was a case of real bad luck as the big boy ran off unharmed, but then things could've been a whole lot worse.

I pulled the rifle apart back at camp and packed out the trigger plate to avoid contact but then tried to get it to fire with just caps which it did. It seems that the lock is not engaging half cock properly when fitted to the rifle. If I pull the hammer back past half cock then let it go it contacts the cap.

Also I feel that the face of the hammer is too close to the top of the nipple when in the half cock position especially when a cap is fitted and tapping the hammer hard can cause the cap to fire.

I normally hunt with the rifle loaded and a cap fitted with the hammer in half cock.

I did have a sling on the rifle and what may have happened as I unslung it off my shoulder is the hammer got caught in the sling and pulled back partially and when it fell forward set the rifle off. I have removed the sling as I wasn't using it much anyway. Even so this shouldn't be possible in half cock.

Has anyone else had this occur with the Lyman GPR? It is an incredibly dangerous situation and I couldve easily been killed. I love the rifle, it is a tackdriver and well balanced but I can't hunt with it like this. It won't stay accurate for much longer if this happens again as I will have a huge flinch.

All helpful replies greatly appreciated. Today was the last day of three weeks hunting the rut and I should be having a celebratory beer right now. Thanks.

 

[ebiggs1]

Anything made by the hand of man, can and will fail. :hmm: If everything checked out, I'd say it was just unfortunate and another reason we always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. :wink:

 

[Kapow]

Definitely right on the safe direction part. I am anal about it and cringe when I see some idiot swing a rifle barrel past someone but there is more to this than bad luck. This rifle, as is, is very dangerous and needs serious modification or disposal.

I will drop Lyman a line and see what happens but I don't expect much help there.

 

[wattlebuster]

What ebiggs said and I think thats where the term "going off half cocked" came from. I would check and make sure there is nothing touching your lock and trigger parts inside each one's mortises

 

[50cal.cliff]

First off, glad your OK and no one was hurt.

Second, half cock is not a safety, even though many use it that way!

Third I suspect the problem may be in the lock.Take the lock off and check too see whether it is engaging properly at half cock. If everything appears to be engaging properly. The problem could lay with how much torque was applied when the lock was installed into the stock. I have seen locks that when the screws were over torqued would not function properly!

I saw a gadget or a cover someone had posted here on this site a while back and if I can find it I will re-post it! Basically it was a leather cover that acted as a rain bonnet for a cap but what they were doing was squeezing the cap so it was almost impossible to fall off. The leather cap acted as a rain bonnet but also as a fail safe. It had a leather top and unless removed would not allow the hammer to strike the cap. That way at half cock it acted as a safety! You would just half to develop the habit of bumping it off as you came to full cock and shouldered the rifle!

I have never had but one accidental discharge in my life. I had pulled a loaded 22 out from under my Dads seat. It was covered in dust and took on the back porch to dust off. I was popping the rifle with an old rag,..........when it went off. I think I must have hit the hammer with enough force with the rag to partially cock the hammer but not enough to engage it on the half cock. Good gun handling procedure had me pointing the rifle away from me or anyone else but there was the matter of a small hole in the roof of the back porch! :shake:

I will guarantee you this incident will stick in your mind for the rest of your life. So try and learn something from it and move on. Half cock is not a safety, and maybe the cover like I am talking about is a better procedure. I will look for that thread and maybe someone else will post it!

 

[Kapow]

Yep, will definitely be getting one of those leather do-da's. The lock works perfectly out of the rifle and half cock is very positive. It is hard to see what is going on inside but over torquing could be a suspect.

How much space should there be between the hammer face and nipple when capped?

The more I think of it I believe that the half cock is partially engaging which allows the hammer to fall forward unhindered when bumped.

Please do me a favour, if you own a Lyman, give it the once over and check you don't have similar issues. I would hate to imagine what could have been. All the logs, rocks etc that I scrambled, slid and fell over the last few weeks and it chooses that time to discharge!!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

How is the half-cock notch not an internal "safety", when the definition of such is a mechanical device that prevents the hammer (or other firing mechanism) from being released when the trigger is pulled. Most "safeties" act in some way to prevent part of the mechanical chain of moving parts from moving, thus reducing the possibility of accidental discharge. Many modern guns simply block the movement of the trigger itself, but this is not a requirement for the item to be called a "safety". Some modern guns also merely block the movement of the hammer (as in the case with Kapow's rifle) when the safety is engaged, and some of these same modern guns actually use two safety systems. It is only a late 20th century innovation that a safety actually disengages the firing pin, and breaks the mechanical chain. This is also the reason that when teaching gun safety the students are taught the mantra "A safety is a mechanical part that may fail".

Kapow, the advise on the tension on the lock is good, also check the tip of the sear, and the half-cock notch. I have seen tips of sears chip off, leaving less to engage the notch, or the tip is by default thicker when it engages the notch, so does not fully seat. Also the notch itself may get some crud jammed into it, and thus not allow a full seating of the sear. Finally, regarding the lock tension, sometimes due to weather and humidity, the wood inside the lock mortise will swell and begin to press on the sear, thus the friction may prevent the sear from freely moving enough to engage the half-cock notch.

I don't know if you can get one down-under, but any of the .38 revolver or 9mm luger casings will normally fit over a capped nipple on a plains style rifle, but not rest on the cap, and thus prevent the hammer from striking the cap if such occurs in the future.


LD

 

[ohio ramrod]

If the lock functions properly outside the gun it is most likely that the fly is binding. The fly is the little thing that allows the sear to pass the half cock position when using the set trigger. Does the sear fit into the half cockwhen the lock is out of the gun? Is it possible that you were pulling the hammer back to full cock and the hammer sliped will you were drawing down on the deer. I had this happen to me once when wearing gloves. Which is why I now hunt with a glove that has the thumb and trigger finger cut off!To allow my thumb to hold the hammer directly as well as giving a more steady grip on the trigger.Also the desighn of the lock is such that you have very little clearance between the nipple and hammer at half cock. That is just the way they were made. :idunno: :idunno:

 

[curator]

The Lyman GPR is a great rifle. Unfortunately, they come with a double set trigger. The double set trigger works fine for target shooting but can be unsafe in a hunting situation as you have experienced. On half cock, the hammer can be pulled back just a tiny bit to allow the fly to engage and then the hammer will drop onto the cap (or frizzen on a flintlock) While a half-cock notch is not the best of "safeties" it works pretty good on single trigger (no fly on the tumbler) locks. Set triggers also make an audible "click" when set, alarming every buck within a half-mile. A rifle without a set trigger and fly can be cocked silently and is unlikely to fire if your thumb slips off the hammer when cocking (or un-cocking) the piece.

 

[necchi]

Thanks for sharing,
It's an eye opener for all to stay vigilante.

If the lock functions properly outside the gun it is most likely that the fly is binding.

Yup.

 

[MSW]

thanks for sharing... i agree with Necci that you may well have a flye problem...

by the way- i agree that your relation of this close call may save someone from harm in the future; whatever embarrassment you suffer should be made right by that.

 

[roundball]

As an additional consideration...there's an excellent waterproof & safety device, called the Kap Kover...just Google it up.

 

[crockett]

I don't mean to keep pushing the same thing but if you get a metal tube large enough on the inside diameter to fit around the cap that is on the nipple- and long enough to keep a lowered hammer off the cap- then you have a pretty good system. Ideally this tube ought to be epoxied glued to a thong that is affixed to the trigger guard or stock. You bring the rifle to the shoulder, cock the hammer, flick the thong to lift off the tube- letting it dangle. IMHO I think it is generally safer to have a hammer lowered on a live cap than in half cock- the undercut on the tumbler may or may not be sufficient.
Years ago lever action rifles (Winchester 94) didn't have a cross bar safety. The half cock was the safety- or you could lower the hammer. In any event you unloaded the gun by feeding live ammo in and out of the action. I had on a heavy jacket. My finger was off the trigger while unloading but somehow the cuff of the jacket caught on the trigger and the gun fired while I was unloading. I switched to a Marlin 336 because they had cross bar safeties. BUT the point is- catching the trigger on a cuff or branch or whatever does happen and a muzzle loader on half cock that gets the hammer pulled back a bit may accidentally fire.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Get the Gorilla out of your gun room! He is cranking those lock bolts down too hard, and pulling the lock into the wood in the mortise, which prevents the parts from moving freely.

NO lock bolt or screw should extend beyond the surface of the outside of the lock plate. Put your finger over the hole for a given bolt as you turn it into the plate. STOP when you feel the nose of the bolt touch your fingertip.

Normal practice is to put witness marks on the screw heads before removing the screws, so you know where to return the screws to the same position. I use an awl, or scribe to scratch a mark on the bottom of the screw slot on any screw, and carry that scratch on to the metal or wood surrounding the screwhead.

Whenever you turn a screw out, its wise to count the number of turns you make with the screwdriver, too. That way, you first start the screw back into the wood with your fingertips so you can feel when the threads meet resistance, then count the turns of our screwdriver again to return it to its original position. :hmm:

If the lock mortise- and any other mortises-- in your rifle show bare wood, stain them, and then put a thin coat of stock finish in the mortises to seal them. That way the wood will not soak up oils, or moisture. If the wood swells, it will bind your moving parts, too.

 

[Rifleman1776]

On another thread I got a lot of grief for advocating carrying during a hunt, while capped, having the hammer down all the way onto the cap. That is in my not so humble opinion the safest way to carry a capped rifle while hunting. I was also chastized because a lot of old timers advocated this method. Don Davis, Max Vickery and many others. Tests were published in Muzzle Blasts showing it takes a very hard rap to ignite a cap and hitting the hammer while resting on the cap will (almost [I never say never] ) never ignite one.
Carrying at half cock invites just what you experienced. Carrying through the woods at half cock invites branches to catch and full cock or fire the gun.
Glad you weren't injured.
Now the retorts. :shocked2:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree. With the hammer down, its easier to prevent movement of the hammer as you move thru brush by carrying the gun in a 2-hand "carry" with your(1) trigger hand wrapped around the stock either behind the hammer spur, or(2) in front and on top of the hammer, where your arm, wrist, and hand prevent brush from hitting the spur and cocking the hammer.

I am not a big fan of "Brush busting", as I am a tracker, and follow the footprints, on game trails, to get thru dense brush. I do not advocate moving fast thru brush, either, as it advertises your location, and size to all the animals, who then send out alarm calls. You are surely the largest Predator in the woods! So, all animals listen to those alarms, and either hide, or run. It simply doesn't make much sense to me to engage in behavior that insures that you won't see game, or, if you do, it will be their backsides running from you.

Running, or just moving too fast, thru brush is a great way to get seriously hurt, IMHO even if you have no gun at all.

I am happy also that Kapow was not hurt in this instance. Obviously, he paid attention to the first "rule of gun safety" and that is to "never point a gun at anything( Including yourself) you do not intend to kill or destroy", and the second "rule", "Treat every gun with the same respect due to a loaded gun."

Sharing these stories is an excellent way for hunters to remind themselves to obey ALL safety Rules, and remember the events in their own lives when they experienced an Accidental Discharge. AD's are okay: Accidental HITS are not. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[jethro224]

Even so this shouldn't be possible in half cock.

Exactly! If this is the case there is something wrong with your rifle. Either the fly, sear, tumbler, loose screws, wood interference, or something wrong with the trigger adjustment/placement. If you can not figure it out yourself, please have it looked at by a competent gunsmith who can.

While not perfect, when functioning correctly the half-cock notch IS the closest thing to a "safety" on a sidelock. No matter what anybody else thinks. Oldtimers included.

Anyone who thinks that carrying with the hammer down on a cap is safe should try pulling the hammer back almost to half-cock and then letting it go. Kinda like what could happen if the hammer spur got snagged on brush, clothing, or whatever. Or if your thumb slipped while cocking when game was spotted. BOOM!
A fall could also set off the cap if the hammer were to get smacked when the gun lands.
Carry on half-cock with the same caution you would if carrying with the hammer down on a cap and you will be as safe as you can be. After all, the best safety is you!
:2

 

[crockett]

In looking at round ball's devise the thought occurred to me that if you scrounge around at the range and find a .223 shell case with a bottleneck- you could probably cut the case so that the large diameter part fits over the cap and nipple and then drill a hole through the narrow neck and run the thong through- ought to work- next time at the range I'm going to find a .223 case- they're usually all over the place- and give it a try.-

 

[roundball]

Anyone who thinks that carrying with the hammer down on a cap is safe should try pulling the hammer back almost to half-cock and then letting it go.
Kinda like what could happen if the hammer spur got snagged on brush, clothing, or whatever. Or if your thumb slipped while cocking when game was spotted. BOOM!

Exactly, thank you.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

IMO, it sounds like the hammer got caught onto something and pulled back enough to release from the safety notch and once it cleared, BOOM.