Accuracy expectation

[robtattoo]

Further to my other threads regarding my new .54 Lyman barrel.....

I went to the range yesterday, to roughly sight in the GPR & burn some powder off. I had it printing nicely on centre, 2" high at 50yds with 85gn of 3F, a .490 ball & .015 patch. I did notice that I was occasionally burning through the patches, so I switched to .018 ticking, however this was a complete pig to load to the point of amost having to take a run-up with the ramrod. My group seemed to open up with the thicker patch, although the burn through stopped (all patches were store-bought, Ox-Yoke lubed)

I moved onto the 100yd range, just to see where I was hitting in relation to my 50yd target, surprisingly enough with the 85gn/.015 combo the centre of my group was dead on centre (although my group was not brilliant) but I was back to burnt patches. So, feeling frisky, I tried upping my load to 90gn which looked like it tightened up my group a little, although point of impact was pretty much the same & burn-through was the same too. The patch burn I was getting was just a couple of small holes (1/16" x 1/16") looking like it was happening right where the ball meets the bore.

Now to my point/question.....

I'm a pretty good shot, I've shot rifles most of my life, but I'm very new to BP & round ball. What kind of grouping sizes should I expect to see (NOT what is possible, what would you expect from an average shooter) at 100yds shooting my GPR from a benchrest? My best load, best group yesterday had an edge to edge spread of 8" which is adequate for my hunting needs but, I thought, dissapointing. I was hoping to see a much smaller spread.
Could the patch-burn be opening my group significantly? (Enough to try an OP wad?) Does it make a big difference that it's a brand new barrel with only 40 or 50 shots through it? Are my expectatons simply too high for a simple PRB with a primitive sight?

 

[biliff]

You should be able to get a PRB load under 4" at 100 yards without too much load developement. Better than that is certainly possible with additional work.

Give your barrel a little more break in time. 100-200 shots.

Wind drift will really mess up your groups at 100 yards. Variable winds can make an otherwise good group look pretty bad.

 

[Billnpatti]

A reasonable expectation for most shooteres with a muzzleloader at 100 yards is probably in the 3 to 4 inch group size.

Some folks have found that adding some cornmeal in a volume equivalent to 10 to 20 grains in your powder measure will act as a sealer and stop the burning problems on your patches. Just put your powder charge down your bore and settle it by tapping on the side of your barrel. Then add the cornmeal on top of the powder. Seat your patched ball on top of the cornmeal. Another thing some folks use instead of cornmeal is Cream of Wheat. I used both for a while but now make 1/2 inch wads from 5 oz. tooling leather for my .50 cal rifles. I soak them in Ballistol and pat them dry before using them. I just seat one on top of my powder and then seat my patched ball on top of the wad. It sure improved my group size and my velocity was much more consistant when using the leather wads. You can buy pre-lubed felt wads for your rifle if you don't have a source for scrap leather. I use a 1/2 inch hollow punch that I bought from Harbor Freight for next to nothing to make my leather wads.

 

[Maven]

"Further to my other threads regarding my new .54 Lyman barrel....

"I went to the range yesterday, to roughly sight in the GPR & burn some powder off. I had it printing nicely on centre, 2" high at 50yds with 85gn of 3F, a .490 ball & .015 patch. I did notice that I was occasionally burning through the patches, so I switched to .018 ticking, however this was a complete pig to load to the point of amost having to take a run-up with the ramrod. My group seemed to open up with the thicker patch, although the burn through stopped (all patches were store-bought, Ox-Yoke lubed)."

I'm a bit confused: Is the bbl. you're writing about .54cal. of .50cal (I'm assuming the latter)? I've an additional question, what is the actual diameter of the RB you used? I ask only because I have a .50cal. GPR as well and have no problem seating a .490" RB & .018" patch combination. (It's the .495" ball & .018" patch that requires a HUGE amount of effort to seat.)

Blown or burnt through patches can indeed have a negative effect on accuracy*, but so can not wiping the bore after seating the ball and again after firing in some rifles. Then too, it can be the shooter: What kind of groups can you consistently get @ 100 yds. (using a rest) from an open sighted center fire cartridge rifle? If your eyes are good, you should be able to shoot 4" or smaller groups @ 100 yds. with the GPR. With the proper ball, patch & powder combination, and bench technique, 2" - 2 1/2" isn't out of the question.


*It won't hurt to try an OP patch or even a 1/2" cardboard (shirt cardboard, writing tablet backing) or dry felt wad.

 

[robtattoo]

I'm a bit confused: Is the bbl. you're writing about .54cal. of .50cal (I'm assuming the latter)? I've an additional question, what is the actual diameter of the RB you used? I ask only because I have a .50cal. GPR as well and have no problem seating a .490" RB & .018" patch combination. (It's the .495" ball & .018" patch that requires a HUGE amount of effort to seat.)

D'Oh!! Sorry, I'm too used to my fifty! Ball size was .530 in a .54 cal barrel! :hatsoff:

 

[rabjr]

When you find the right load combo and break in your gun, you should be able to make one ragged hole at 50 yards and not much more than that at 75. I don't shoot at 100 yards anymore myself so others need to advise there.

 

[necchi]

3-4" is BEST with most guy's because of iron sights and eyes.
Use a small aiming point at 100, perhaps a blackned cirlce about 1"- 1 1/2" on a printer sheet. It helps, "aim small-miss small".

Try 535 ball also,, I like a tight (TIGHT) fit, I'm a swabber so buld-up is not a problem. I don't hafta hammer, but it takes, several jamming strokes to get it down. I've used 535 and a .021 dry lubbed patch for best accuracy. That combo is a match winner and the gun shoot's better than me.

 

[longcruise]

Three to four inch is about what you ought to expect. You can use op wads, fillers, etc., but mostly that's like putting a band aid on a broken leg! Not saying those are not useful tools but your rifle is not ready for them until it is broken in. That 100 to 200 shots is about right. Might even take 300 to 400.

Rather than shoot it in, I'd recommend lapping the bore either by hand or with a firelap compound. Then, if you work on the crown to round it, radius it and increase the taper a bit you will be able to load a much tighter (and usually more accurate) load.

Nothing wrong with "shooting it in", but it could take a long long time depending on how often you are able to shoot and how much you are able to shoot at each range session. Truth is, many ml rifle owners never shoot 400 shots through it in their lifetime.

 

[J.D.]

there may be sharp edges on the rifling or a burr on the muzzle that is cutting your patches.

Try using a 1 1/2-2" square of green scotchbrite pad on a jag one standard bore size smaller that your rifle. Oil the bore and swab with the green scrubbie about 50 strokes.

God bless

 

[rabjr]

there may be sharp edges on the rifling or a burr on the muzzle that is cutting your patches.

Try using a 1 1/2-2" square of green scotchbrite pad on a jag one standard bore size smaller that your rifle. Oil the bore and swab with the green scrubbie about 50 strokes.

God bless

I was going to post this or using fine steel wool wrapped around a ramrod or similar stick. About 50 to 100 strokes should help speed up the breakin period.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Anytime you are shooting 75 grains of FFFg powder in a rifle, or more, you risk burning patches, even the pre-lubes. Its small granular size makes it burn HOTTER, faster, and create Pressure faster. Pressure in turn helps to increase the temperature of the burn, which then consumes the lube in the patch, and, finally, burns the patch.

Try using something as a " Fire-Wall" between the powder charge and the PRE-Lube patches. Don't change thicknesses of the patches, for now. See if you don't get better groups by simply removing that burned patched problem.

Fire-walls can be OP wads, made of wool felt, lubed, and unlubed, or of vegetable fibers, or even something as available as a cleaning patch, folded over a couple of times and driven down the barrel on top of the powder before seating the PRB. You can also try using FILLERS as fire-wall. Cream of Wheat, Grits, Corn Meal, PUF-LON, a commercial synthetic product, and any other grain that is ground for cooking and baking purposes. 25=50 grains by VOLUME- not weight!-- of any of these fillers should be sufficient to give you a fire-wall, that will prevent the Patch from burning.

Use what you have in your kitchen cupboard, for now. Try the idea of a firewall first, to see if it tightens the groups. For most of us, it has. If you use a chronograph, those firewalls also tend to dramatically increase velocity and lower Standard Deviation in Velocity(SDV), meaning that the powder is burning completely in the barrel, leaving only carbon residue, instead of gritty-feeling bits of unburned carbon in the residue.

One of our members, RoundBall, has found that using OxYoke type felt wads, ONE caliber size larger than the caliber he is shooting, and, sometimes, Using two such wads, shrinks his groups. ( ie., use .54 caliber felt wads in the .50 caliber rifle.) The oversized wads will cup a bit, but a RB is-well--ROUND, and the extra material just creates a "cup" into which the ball fits when the load is fired. The backside of the PRB pushes this extra material into the grooves, providing a good seal against the gases trying to push past the fire-wall, and the PRB.

You can achieve the same effect using loose fillers, or by using an OP wad made of vegetable fiber wads that is GROOVE DIAMETER to your gun barrel.

Longhunters in the 18th century, hunting long distances from any source of re-supply, used what was at hand: we know that leather was used for patches, but its unclear about the kind used, or the source. We know of wasp or hornet nest material being used as a filler. Then there were green and dried leaves, tobacco leaves- stale! of course-- you smoked the good stuff, and any other kind of fiber( Tow) tree bark etc. that could be used as either a wad, or filler.

Learn to crawl before you run. Start off with "stuff" you already own to make a firewall. If it works, then you can think about trying different kinds of materials, and, when you fall off into the very deep end of all this :youcrazy: :redface: :shocked2: :rotf: :idunno: :surrender: :hmm: , go to finding hornet and wasp nests each fall, to create a "supply" of wadding to use in your traditional flintlock rifle. :hatsoff:

 

[cowpoke1955]

As was mentioned, your barrel needs to be broke in. The riflings are sharp and will cut your patches until you have 100 to 200 rounds through it. My .54 GPR flinter took about 100 rounds to break in. My patches use to have cut holes in them, but afterwards they look almost new. If you still get holes in your patches after your barrel is broke in, try a wonder wad or switch to FFg powder. FFFg burns hotter and can burn through some patches. Mine will shoot good with FFFg, but I get tighter groups with FFg. My favorite load is .530 ball, pillow ticking patch (.018) lubed with Ballistol oil and 80 grains of FFg Goex. Hang in there and enjoy the ride :thumbsup:

 

[robtattoo]

there may be sharp edges on the rifling or a burr on the muzzle that is cutting your patches.

Try using a 1 1/2-2" square of green scotchbrite pad on a jag one standard bore size smaller that your rifle. Oil the bore and swab with the green scrubbie about 50 strokes.

God bless

I was going to post this or using fine steel wool wrapped around a ramrod or similar stick. About 50 to 100 strokes should help speed up the breakin period.

Thanks guys, I considered this, but I put it off until I read y'alls posts.
I just spent an hour running a green scotchbrite pad through the bore (somewere between 50 & 100 strokes) & then thoroughly cleaning & oiling.
There's a very noticeable improvement in the feeling of smoothness when I run a dry cleaning patch down there. I won't get chance to shoot again 'til later in the week, but I can definately feel a difference. I think I'll try & run a full 100 through it this week before I try OP wads or anything different.
Thanks for the tips!

 

[Semisane]

I'm real happy with a 3" five-shot group at 100 yards. Don't mind 4" at all, but get very unhappy with 5" or more. (All from a bench, of course.)

 

[flyfish]

I went to the range this weekend to do some shooting with my .50cal. and I had the same question as Robtattoo did. So I got the expected group size question answered. Thanks Robtattoo.

But being new to muzzle loaders I have a couple other questions as well.
I'm shooting 80 grains of Pyrodexs R/S with .490 Hornady round balls w/.015 prelubed TC patches.
Distance 50 yards @ a 3.5" black circle on cardboard. Shooting from a rest.
So here is what I got. 1st shot was at 9 O'clock 4" from center of the bullseye. 2nd shot was DEAD center. I'm feeling pretty good right now.
The next 3 shots were about 8 inches high (at 12 O'clock) but the group was rather good (approx. 3") The first shot I could possibly explain, cold clean barrel. The next shot was where I hoped to see it but the next three, not so much.
I know my eyes are getting old and open sites.....
I have a couple questions. Can the amount of pressure I put on the ball (on top of the charge) make a difference? Can you put too much pressure on the charge? I did not clean the barrel between any of the shots.
I had another problem when I was shooting. It happend on the first shot and then again part way through my shooting, the gun did not go off on the first cap. The first time I tried three caps before I put a few graunals of powder down below the nipple and then the gun went off. I had cleaned the barrel well with alcohol before I began shooting. It happend again after about 4 shots but this time it went off with a second cap. I really thought I was cleaning the gun well but I must be doing something wrong.
Thanks in advance for your help and comments.

Dave

 

[MikeChapin]

...

But being new to muzzle loaders I have a couple other questions as well.
I'm shooting 80 grains of Pyrodexs R/S with .490 Hornady round balls w/.015 prelubed TC patches.
Distance 50 yards @ a 3.5" black circle on cardboard. Shooting from a rest.
So here is what I got. 1st shot was at 9 O'clock 4" from center of the bullseye. 2nd shot was DEAD center. I'm feeling pretty good right now.
The next 3 shots were about 8 inches high (at 12 O'clock) but the group was rather good (approx. 3") The first shot I could possibly explain, cold clean barrel. The next shot was where I hoped to see it but the next three, not so much.

What condition were your patches?

I would drop the load back to 50 grains and try that. I would also vary the patch thickness. Try an .018 or .020 patch and see how it works. Most of my rifles like a .023 ticking patch but don't mind a .020. One rifle will not get better than a 6" group at 50 yards with a .020" patch. It requires a .026 canvas or denim patch to keep it in an inch at 50 yards.

I know my eyes are getting old and open sites.....
I have a couple questions. Can the amount of pressure I put on the ball (on top of the charge) make a difference? Can you put too much pressure on the charge? I did not clean the barrel between any of the shots.

I don't think so as long as you are consistent with the amount of pressure you put on the ball from shot to shot. I don't think you can get too much pressure on the ball with just your own muscles. I see more than a few people throw the ramrod down on the ball until it bounces when they load and doesn't seem cause any harm except for deforming the ball.

I had another problem when I was shooting. It happend on the first shot and then again part way through my shooting, the gun did not go off on the first cap. The first time I tried three caps before I put a few graunals of powder down below the nipple and then the gun went off. I had cleaned the barrel well with alcohol before I began shooting. It happend again after about 4 shots but this time it went off with a second cap. I really thought I was cleaning the gun well but I must be doing something wrong.
Thanks in advance for your help and comments.

Dave

As you shoot, residue builds up in the breech. If you have a patent breech, powder can sometimes bridge at the top of the chamber. With BP this can cause a problem with misfires. With a substitute the problem is exacerbated by the higher ignition temperature they have.

It may help if you give the breech a slap before you put the ball in. This may break up the bridge and allow more powder down in the chamber.

 

[flyfish]

I didn't look at the patches. I'll go up tonight and see what they look like.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you will borrow a chronograph to use, and then test loads using different amount of pressure on seating the ball, you will find that different pressure does change the MV with each shot, and that can send the ball to a different POI on your target. Lots of pressure also distorts the shape of the ball, and the amount of friction between the Patch and ball, And the Bore. That changes your MV and POI, too.

Remedy: Load to a mark on your Ramrod- NOT as Hard as you can push that rod down on the ball, to get better, more consistent accuracy.

Remember that Pyrodex RS is a substitute powder that burns at a much HOTTER TEMPERATURE. Its going to create MORE chamber pressure. The more chamber pressure for a given "shot", the wider the possible variation in MV. Compressing that powder does affect the pressure created behind the ball.

Remedy: I hate to be a drone, but switch to real Black powder. You should try both 3Fg and 2Fg to see which powder your gun likes the best. Let the gun tell you! :shocked2: :blah: :hmm:

Misfires: Unless you store your rifle MUZZLE DOWN, you will never be sure that the flash channel, and nipple are clean of congealed oil if the gun has been stored for any length of time.

The only way to know for sure is to disassemble the nipple from the bolster, visually inspect the hole in the nipple to make sure its not plugged, and then run a pipe cleaner soaked in alcohol, down the flash channel.

The misfire during the string of shots almost surely indicates that you are pushing CRUD down into the powder chamber/flash channel, OR, are using too much cleaning fluid on the patch, and failing to dry it out of the barrel before putting powder down the barrel for the next shot.

A cleaning jag should be at least .020" Smaller in diameter than your bore, so that the thin, cotton flannel cleaning patch slides OVER the crud as your rod runs the jag and patch down the barrel. If the jag is too big in diameter, it instead pushes the crud in front of the jag and patch, and into the flash channel, or powder chamber(if your gun has one), or both.

Popping a cap MAY clear a dirty flash channel of crud, but it can't burn off lots of moisture left in the chamber, or barrel. ( Its not hot enough, LONG enough to evaporate fluids. Its like trying to blow water out of a trombone: The expanding bell decreases pressure when you need higher pressure the most! Compare to blowing water out of a straight line snorkel, or hose.)

Remedy: First, check the diameter of your CLEANING jag( different from a loading jag: See Track of the Wolf's catalog on-line to see pictures of the different shaped jags.) and compare it to the bore diameter of your gun. Chuck the jag in a drill press, or a hand drill clamped in a vise, and use a file to reduce the diameter of the jag to better work in your barrel.

Second, if you don't know if your gun has a reduced diameter powder chamber in the breech, Use a .22 caliber cleaning rod to feel down there and find out! T/C, Lyman, Pedersoli, and other percussion rifles made in Europe all have "powder" chambers". The size of the chamber can vary with the caliber of the rifle. Most are at least .30 caliber, but some are larger, on the larger caliber guns.

Usually, these chambers clean out well with soap and water, and pumping the fluid through those areas with a good cleaning jag and patch combination. During most days firing these guns, the burning powder( either 3Fg or Pyrodex RS, or even P) will burn out most any crud or residue that may be back in that chamber, because of the high pressures created in the chamber. However, on very humid days, or when liquid cleaners are use too liberally on cleaning patches, fluid can be left in the chamber, if its not dried out using a DRY CLEANING PATCH. That means, you have to take a second rod, usually, with a smaller diameter jag fitted to that powder chamber diameter, so that you can push a cleaning patch down into the chamber to soak up any dampness left there. ( Suggestion: I use .22-.25, .30, and .35 caliber Bore brushes on my range rod, with a cleaning patch to clean those chambers. I have not owned such a gun in years, but still have all the equipment and make it available to club members at the range to clear their guns during shoots. )

Summary: To prevent misfires at the range:

1. Store guns at home MUZZLE DOWN.
2. Do flush out the oils from the barrels with alcohol, but if the gun has been in storage for more than a couple of weeks, remove the nipple, and visually inspect it for blockages. Then use a pipe cleaner soaked in alcohol to run down the flash channel to clear it of congealed oil.

3. Be careful when cleaning guns during a shooting session. I clean between every shot, but understand that some people believe they get great accuracy without doing so. If you use a liquid cleaner on your patch, make sure you use DRY cleaning patches to soak out all the fluids from your barrel and powder chamber, if the gun has one.

4. Make sure the cleaning jag is small enough to allow your cleaning patch slide over the crud, rather than shoving it down the barrel into the flash channel and powder chamber.

5. Make sure you know if the gun has a powder chamber, and know what the diameter of that chamber is. Buy a reduced diameter cleaning jag to fit that chamber, or buy a bore brush that will fit it. Then simply put a cleaning patch in front of the bore brush to run down into the chamber to soak up mositure and dry the chamber.


Paul

 

[flyfish]

:hatsoff: Thanks Paul.

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. robattoo,
Just for reference, my ol' hunting partner's GPR will shoot a 3 shot, 1" group (c to c) at 100yds using Goex 3F; from a bench rest position.
He was a very good shot with any firearm he chose to use. (Much better than myself.)
Best Wishes