accuracy of a flintlock

[BlackHillsBob]

ive never owned one but very interested in them. im really into the science of shooting and the hows and whys of what makes a good shooting gun. my question is this, 2 rifles are built the are the same in every way except one is a flint lock and one is a percussion.which one is the most accurate and which one loads easier with out swabbing between rounds. i would guess the flintlock, am i right or wrong? to me the science is on the flintlocks side. been wondering that for a long time and many good flintlock shooters here to give me the answer?

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I suggest its less about the lock design and more about the nut behind the trigger...

 

[Black Hand]

ive never owned one but very interested in them. im really into the science of shooting and the hows and whys of what makes a good shooting gun. my question is this, 2 rifles are built the are the same in every way except one is a flint lock and one is a percussion.which one is the most accurate and which one loads easier with out swabbing between rounds. i would guess the flintlock, am i right or wrong? to me the science is on the flintlocks side. been wondering that for a long time and many good flintlock shooters here to give me the answer?

If you do your part, the gun will do its part. All the rest (accuracy, ease of loading, velocity, ease of cleaning, etc.) is dependent upon how you do your part. That said, a poor lock of the flint type will be infinitely more troublesome than a poor lock for caps. Bad lock geometry, soft frizzen, cock at the wrong angle, touch-hole placement, rough interior parts and other issues are all factors that can affect performance - a good lock is fantastic, a poor lock is abysmal (there really isn't an intermediate position).
Some prefer caplocks while others prefer flintlocks - I prefer flintlocks. Either way, you need to work within the limitations of the system...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

AH you ignore the human element. So this is an academic question......

So you lock both rifles into a stand on the bench, and they are identical, barrels came off the assembly line right next to each other and one was set up with a drum and nipple, and the other with a touch hole. You load them identically, with totally perfect bullets, and fire them at targets at the same distance with exactly the same wind conditions. They will both group exactly alike, BUT..., the flintlock will shoot slightly lower...and I mean slightly like a teeny tiny bit. Because..., there is a tiny loss of gas pressure out the touch hole thus giving the identical barrels in our perfect situation, slightly less muzzle velocity. The groups will be identical but the flinter will be a tad lower. Correct the sights on the flintlock to account for this and they will be identical.

Now, back to the real world, where a human is most likely firing the flinter...., and the flint changes a miniscule amount from shot to shot, or changes more from shot to shot.....,

The flintlock can ignite so fast that you need an artificial timer to tell the difference between it and the caplock.

CAN..., not always will... since the random changes in the edge of the flint may cause differences in the amount of sparks delivered to the pan and powder, and when they are delivered. Add to that differences in air moisture to the priming powder, either in the container or when resting in the pan, which can alter ignition speed. Meanwhile during the firing sequence, the shooter has to maintain the proper sight alignment. Now all of this in a well made lock, and well aligned trigger, are tiny variations, over fractions of a second, BUT..., it can add up to give an overall average of slightly less accuracy in the flinter. NOT enough for it to matter to a deer or elk or moose, but enough at the national level of target shooting to cause the two types of ignition in the rifles to be in two different categories.

Just to be clear..., IF your flinter is shooting like the pop-Ca-POW of a Hollywood rifle or the Vintage TV Series Daniel Boone..., the lock needs a lot of work.

I own both, and I think the flinter is more fun and the bragging rights are better. If it's going to rain pretty hard and I'm running out of days to hunt..., I grab the caplock.

As far as swabbing between shots....that has nothing to do with the ignition, and is all about the powder, atmosphere, and the lube.

LD

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

[QUOTE="BlackHillsBob, which one is the most accurate and which one loads easier with out swabbing between rounds. [/QUOTE]
First of all Welcome to the forum! A supporting member at that!
I shoot shoot flint 95% of the time, but in my opinion there is no difference in accuracy and or swabbing between rounds. This is based on tuning each gun to its' own idiosyncrasies, and that of course would not be of equal effort or process. A flintlock is definitely more of a challenge to shoot it well. I like to shoot both perc and flint, but the challenge of a flint is just more attractive to me.
Flintlocklar

 

[TFoley]

I recall that in the WOI the British General Fraser was VERY impressed with the accuracy of a flintlock rifle....

 

[EC121]

If you look at the national aggregate record scores of the NMLRA, you will see that there isn't much difference in the flint and pop-lock scores. Neither one is inherently more accurate than the other.

 

[tenngun]

I don’t know if you take two barrels from a maker and put a flint on one and a cap on the other it will make any difference.
They may not shoot exactly the same, one may need a little different charge, little different load.
However, no matter how much you time the lock and play with priming ect there is always a pause between pulling the trigger and gun going off. And people move. That said my guns can shoot better then I can.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

i always thought from a scientific point of view that a flinter has more air(oxygen) available to the charge than a precussion. their for more complete burn and more consistant burn. i came to this thought when i saw years ago a high end 50 cal precussion for the 1840 with a 1/32 hole drilled into the back of the combustion chamber. the reason i found out in research was that when the cap goes off it goes against increased back pressure. the ball sealed in a piece of cloth lets no air go around it and their for the cap is going against increased back pressure as the flame gets closer to the powder. with the vent hole in back of the powder chamber their is no back pressure as the flame pushes the air out of the vent hole and the flame reaches the charge faster and more complete. wish i knew who thought of that back in the 1830 and 1840/s well then i though that a flint lock may be better than a precussion because it has no back pressure creating a better burn of the powder. im not for sure that once the powder goes of in a flinter that i doesnt suck air as the powder burns. i built a custom side lock for a shooter back east and rebuilt one of his underhammers. on both those guns i put a vent hole 1/32/nd diam in the back of his guns. he then did it to the other 12 he had and never again had a missfire. their for i concluded a well tuned flint lock may be better in every way than a average precussion side lock. i think that if one has a good side lock and puts a 1/32 vent hole in back of the cumbustion chamber it matchs a flinter but im still going with a well set up flinter as doing what a gun should do. hit to point of aim every time you let one off. remember the first shot fired at the battle of new orleans was a off hand shot at 216 yard. old morg, put that ball from his flinter through the ear and the head of a young british officer who was cussing out the americans. it shut his mouth for good.i just waiting for some one out their to build a long range flinter and smoke the long range precussion guys. remember the souther man who the northern guys killed his family and left him alive. he had a heavy bench 50 cal built, may have been a flinter. the gun can be seen on the internet. he sniped dozens of northen guys guys with that gun and lived to be a old old man. one boat load of northeners surrendered to him and he had to run away for them because he was one man with 100 wanting to become his prisioner. when they went down his river he shot them by the dozens. i want to hear more about flintlocks and what they can do. im here to learn.

 

[Black Hand]

The oxygen for the reaction comes from the Potassium nitrate (KNO3) in the mix and not so much from the atmosphere...

 

[hanshi]

As for the questions about percussion vs flint, there's no difference. "Follow through" is more important with a flintlock than a caplock and requires a bit more attention in its operation; otherwise it's six vs half a dozen.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Both guns being equal, save the lock, I'd say its then the individual behind the gun as to which would be more accurate. The percussion has a slight advantage in timing, and weather resistance, however a quality, properly tuned flintlock can be very fast. I've seen some flintlock shooters who know their guns intimately enough that you will not perceive a delay when they pull the trigger. Again, it depends more upon the shooter than the gun.

Now if I were asked which one I'd prefer, my answer would be the flintlock hands down. They are just that much more fun to shoot IMO.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have a flintlock and a percussion rifle that both are same caliber same maker same length barrel. The sights are slightly different but the same type nonetheless. I can state this two ways. With the most accurate load for each rifle, the flintlock if more accurate. It will group in a ragged hole at 50-yards that becomes about the size of a plumb after 10-shots. The percussion rifle will shoot a group that is similar in size but clearly has two or three shots here, three or four shots there, not one ragged hole. At 100-yards the flintlock is shooting just under 3-inch groups and the percussion is shooting right at 4-inch groups. The second way to state comparison is that with the exact same load (not necessarily the most accurate in either) the flintlock shoots a tighter group. At 50-yards the flintlock still shoot a continuously expanding hole that ends up about 2+ inches after 10-shots. The percussion shoots an ever expanding figure 8 or mickey mouse or 4-leaf clover after 10-shots that ends up 3 inches. Right now, all of my rifles have had their best load explored. None are as accurate as the flintlock, but we are now talking about totally different rifles, projectiles, loads and sights. My percussion smoothbore will shoot one big hole at 25-yards but at 50 it is a 3" group. The other three rifles will shoot nice 1.5-2" groups at 50-yards but end up 2.5, 3 and 3.5" average groups respectively at 100-yards. So while my flintlock is my most accurate rifle, I do not credit it to the fact that is a "flintlock". Everything is working together to get the most accuracy it can. That is largely luck and a lot less to do with the type of ignition. I have had other rifles that I parted with because I could not get "accuracy" that was acceptable to me - both flintlock and percussion - and some of those were renditions of the same manufacturer with different ignitions.

 

[AZbpBurner]

Several years ago I bought a left handed .54 cal flint Lyman Deerstalker, back about the time they removed if from their catalog. It was cheap, and it incurred derision from all other flint shooters at the range. BUT, at 100 yards I could plink grapefruit all day long. I installed the Lyman peep and globe sight set, and when my grapefruit source dried up, switched to water balloons. This 'cheap' flint rifle was much more consistent shooting than some other caplocks, even though they were also Lyman/Investarms & had the same barrel.

I've since gone on to install those sights on a .54 cal Lyman Trade Rifle, which excels in busting clays set out at the 100 yard berm.

 

[Darkhorse]

All new flintlock rifles will benefit from a little "tweaking" from someone who knows what he's doing. I built my rifles to shoot. The locks are tuned, triggers tuned, mainspring and frizzen spring balanced, the locks now are "in tune". The touch holes are tuned to my lock for consistency and speed.
Many hours have been spent at the bench testing powder, patch material and lubes.
I know my rifles and their quirks.
I have trained myself to focus the sights on the target right through ignition. I never close my eyes they are still on target after the shot itself hits the target. I focus on follow through to the extent that I hold through the rare hangfire and still hit the bull.
Now all this didn't happen at once but over many years.
Once the rifle is shooting it's best then it's up to the shooter to do his part.

 

[Col. Batguano]

What Loyalist Dave said is entirely correct. There will be greater variations in ignition time with a rock gun than a capper. Not only that, but the overall barrel dwell time will be much longer even in the fastest case. Pletch did a series of HS videos on a bunch of locks. Look it u. I believe he said the overall barrel dwell on a cap gun was around .032", and a flint gun around .095". That assumes a fast ignition. Add in a few of those Psssst-bangs, when the lock time is .20" and you have a great possibility for groups to get a lot bigger, particularly in an unsteady position like standing.

 

[45man]

I have always loved flint locks and a well tuned one is wonderful. But moisture was always a problem when hunting. Rain drove me nuts even with a knee over the lock. Powder turned to muck. I fit barrels so tight that I need to peel the gun apart but found water still got in the channel and got to the pan. I started to put a heavy coat of paste wax in and squeezed the barrel in it, polish excess off and it really helped. Give it a try next time you go out in bad weather.
Another help is never fill the pan too full or powder has to burn down to the touch hole. Less is better.
Then my percussion was a problem last season too. If I don't get a shot I leave the gun in the cold garage and when I wanted to clean it to put up, it failed. A little FFFFG picked into the nipple made it fire.
I can't talk about me being stupid and forgetting the powder so I have to pull the ball. Ball pullers are too big and will expand the ball tighter so make a puller with a tiny screw. Make sure the ferrule is pinned to the rod. My friend got a ball stuck and pulled the ferrule. He panicked so I put JB epoxy on the rod and got it into the ferrule. It hardened quick and I got it out. Then I pinned it back on for him.

 

[45man]

Lube is important for accuracy too. The wrong lube is trouble. I found Young Country is the best and allows me to shoot well over 200 shots without wiping and accuracy stays. If it gets tight to load, just add a little more for the next patch. Joe likes Crisco and I told him to toss it but he will not. He shot his Walkers and they failed so he could no longer cock the guns. I found the cylinders were rusted to the pins. I had to remove the barrels and use a padded vise to turn the cylinders as I cocked them. He will not change because he likes the smell. I asked him if he licks the balls!
Bore butter contains all kinds of alcohol and water that dries up to rock. It has mineral waxes too. One of the most expensive lubes will fail fast and foul the bore, can't remember the name but Mike Venturino pushes it.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

45 man, if you live long enough and shoot alot it means your a real man when you cowboy up and tell us the mistakes you have done. 2 dumbthings ive is shoot a hole in my basement wall. the other thing is ring a good barrel because i was mad at a small plain for going over my pasture looking for something to shoot from the air. only put the ball a few inches into the barrel made a carbine out of a long rifle. recently the dumb thing i did was come home from the gym and the road was ice, turned into my drive way too fast and slid into the ditch and hit one of my pine trees. knocked my self out and when i woke up i broke my glasses and my face was a bloody mess. never got stiches but got a scar like i was in a good fight. we all do dumb thing, then we realize GOD keeps us alive.

 

[MSW]

you base your question, on the overarching premise is that these two hypothetical rifles will be equal with the sole and single exception of ignition method. now we're solidly "in the subjunctive case," where everything is theoretical and armchair theorists abound.

personally, I prefer flint, but that's just me. because I am more practiced with my flint rifles than the few caplocks I own, I expect and get better results from the flint guns, but i'm well aware that the biggest variable (of the dozens in the equation), is the nut behind the butplate.

one guy's opinion... free and doubtless well worth the cost