Accuracy on Production Flintlocks?

[CoyoteJoe]

Ya I dont care for the Hawken none full stock in flint myself but!! I was just trying to answer what he asked not what I thought of this or that. Now just ask yourself, if the T/C barrels are so good why are so many people replacing them with GMs? to shoot PRBs myself....
Right now Ive got a Rengade thanks to Pork Chop off the classfieds, and a GM 58, as well as a T/C to GM tang, along with most the parts to make a fullstock flintlock, really just need the stock and I'm into it for under 300 really easy, more like 250 and havent sold off any of the old parts. But thats me I was just trying to help the "Q" along. Fred :hatsoff:

Fred, I certainly have no objection to your rework of a Renegade, if you'll check the General Muzzleloading forum you'll find photos of a couple of T/Cs I've reworked myself. I'm under no illusion that I've made them into anything historically correct, I just made them more to my own liking and more useful to me without spending the cost of a custom rifle or even a parts kit. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Now just ask yourself, if the T/C barrels are so good why are so many people replacing them with GMs?

Just for another viewpoint, IMO, the main reasons common across all the threads on this subject over the years are:

1) A lot of people complain about accuracy before they've really had enough hands on experience from trying many variables to figure everything out, and assume its because of the barrel.

2) The majority of people buy into the across the board incorrect statement that 1:48" twists don't shoot round balls accurately;

2) The majority of people didn't/don't know that TC also makes slow twist deep groove round ball barrels, and buy GM because somebody suggested GM;


Personally, I have no TC barrel accuracy problems and have never bought a GM barrel to replace a TC barrel...GM makes good barrels and I have several but they are calibers and smoothbores that TC doesn't happen to make.

Just my .02 cents :thumbsup:

 

[Glenfilthie]

I am having problems with mine. It is an old investarm and is almost a clone of the TC with the 1:48 barrel.

I cannot get it to group at 100 yards. Mind you I will not shoot anything but black powder and refuse to entertain the idea of substitutes.

I have varied the charge, the patching and the ball but results at 100 are always the same: dismal.

Green mountain barrels, huh? I will go check them out!

 

[roundball]

Green mountain barrels, huh? I will go check them out!

I don't know if GM makes a drop for your rifle...you could call and ask them.
On the other hand, if your barrel is a precise clone of a TC, then either a TC or a GM barrel should drop-in.

 

[CrackStock]

I am generally a fan of T/C due to their support of their products, but the Lyman Deer Stalker in .50 is the most accurate production gun that I have seen.

CS

 

[tg]

"
I've never been beat in competition by a production gun."

Well I have been beat by most every kind of gun made.....today I think I came in last except maybe for one ten year old( not really sure if he was competing) and there were probably 30 different guns on the trail...still had fun though :shocked2:

 

[Dphar]

A good rifle should shoot under 2" at 100. But sights are a major factor.
RBs are also prone top wind drift in the slightest breeze.
One 3 shot group or even a 5 shot group proves nothing aside from the load shows promise.
Three or four 3 shot groups or two 5 shot groups is much more illuminating. It is possible to shoot a single 3 or 5 shot group that is very good with very inaccurate load. A friend calls it the law of compensating errors. For example, the shooter makes a error at the time the sear breaks that compensates for an error in the rifle/load and puts the actual off shot into the group rather than out. The more shots are fired the less likely this will occur. It is impossible for this to be done for more than just a few shots.
A load that will shoot into 4" at 100 will kill deer and other large game reliably. But its nice to have a load that shoots better.

Dan

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Well said Dan, I don't consider three shots to be a "group" at all, it's just three shots. If one has already worked out an accurate load and just want to double check the sights to assure it is still zeroed, three shots will do that, but to infer anything about the accuracy there is just too much random chance in three shots. Three shots will always average smaller than five. Gun writers love those "three shot groups" because it allows them to brag up a new gun without putting any effort into it.

 

[Greenmtnboy]

Aside from the fact that a Lyman Trade Rifle retails for less than half the price of a T/C hawken and the Great Plains Rifle about 2/3 the price of a T/C you often hear that the availability of Green Mountain drop in barrels is a great advantage to the T/C. Now just ask yourself, if the T/C barrels are so good why are so many people replacing them with GMs?
I don't care much for flint locks on a Hawken style rifle, they just don't look right to me, but if that doesn't bother you I would echo the comment that the Lyman is a bargain on today's market and most people find the accuracy OK without having to invest in a replacement barrel.

I am in full agreement with Joe on this one, I have found or seen better accuracy out of a Lyman barrel over a TC most of the time.
But being a strong advocate of the Greenmtnbarrel Maby finding a cheap Great plains rifle(gunbroker.com) and re barreling it with a drop in GM barrel may be your best option. You get the same good looking rifle for the same price as a new one or cheaper with a custom barrel.
:hatsoff:

 

[faw3]

Ya I think as you put it I've just done the same thing. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Walks with fire]

After I have worked up a load for a rifle and take it to the range every so often to see if the first shot goes exactly where I want it then I consider it sighted in and don't really concern myself with how well it will group. The first shot on a clean barrel is what I work for; but then I hunt with them more than target shoot.

I have a different way of doing things in that after the first shot I clean the barrel as clean as I can possibly get it before I reload the second. All of my flintlocks will do 2" at 100 from the bench but it wasn't always that way. I am a firm believer in very clean barrel. For some reason I can't get the accuracy I want if I don't.

 

[dfulmer]

I don't mean to point out the flaws but T/C owns GM (Green Mountain Barrels) and both T/C and GM are now owned by Smith & Wesson. When you buy a T/C or GM barrel you are getting the same product.

 

[dfulmer]

Sorry guys, I was sure I read that T/C owns Green Mountain Barrels but I can not find the artical in hard copy or on the web. I thought it was mentioned in one of the articals about Smith & Wesson buying T/C. If I find reference to it I will post it here. In the mean time I retract the statement in my previous post.

 

[roundball]

Actually that's not correct...Green Mountain barrel company was an independent company, then Knight rifles bought out Green Mountain several years ago. After a few years an investment corporation bought out Knight and owns them both.
[url] http://www.ebscoind.com/industries/groups-op-pob_gm.asp[/url]

While GM barrels internal functions are excellent, their exterior fit & finish are not fully up to the level of TC's fit & finish quality...not a slam, just the facts from first hand experience as I own several TC and several GM barrels...and wouldn't let go of my GM barrels as they work fine.

It is correct that S&W recently bought out TC.