Gsjcky
32 Cal
In the center fire world, everyone is looking for the one inch group at 100 yards.
What is the Standard in the Black Powder world?
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What is the Standard in the Black Powder world?
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Accuracy standard
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The same for me unless its a 32 cal which would be same at 50 yards
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Everyone? Maybe the average shooter but those that are at the top of their game will cry if a one inch group is the best their rifle will do at a hundred yards.
82ndPA
32 Cal
I dont know about a standard, but I like to use the historical Figure of Merit to compare loads and measure my performance. Rob @ britishmuzzleloaders.com has a spreadsheet calculator for this, and I think it's also linked on research press uk.
Not sure I would go that small. Reason we start, many of us, with a .50 ball vs say a .223. Second most of us shoot open sights, no scope for eyes. I guess my standard would 2 moa. Now talking a bench rest ml, scoped, heavy bench then 1 moa but most do not have that style of muzzy. Just thinking in terms of a standard for a firearm most have.
Depends on the pond you are in. In real life I don't come across people shooting some of groups people talk about here. In my little club a 6" group offhand at 100 yards will get you a placement ribbon. Work with your gun to find the best it can do off the bench and work towards that offhand. That will establish your standard. Our guns, our eyes, and abilities all have limits.
Group size standard is much bigger than most will admit to. With open sights i doubt i can do better than 6" at hundred yards. I cannot see a 3" orange dot at a hundred yards !
I'd say it depends on a number of factors. Some muzzleloaders are quite capable of it in the right hands but some guns will never be capable of it. One thing I do insist on is using group size at a known distance when discussing accuracy. Just saying "I can kill deer" or "I can hit a gong" doesn't convey any useful data. With that in mind, we're not shooting high velocity, pointy (usually) bullets from an unmentionable gun. It's old school, slow lock time, low velocity, low ballistic coefficient, low sectional density, sub sonic (mostly) shooting and fundamentals on the part of the shooter play a huge factor in any group size. That can be factored out if the shooter does the same thing, the same way, every time, but that is almost never the case.
Brokennock
Cannon
Oh boy....
This will get interesting..... and contentious.
Basically it is different for most everyone depending on their needs and uses for a muzzloader,, and what type of muzzleloader. And, unfortunately, like the centerfire world,,, I suspect some have no standards, just make noise and smoke. (I know this to be true for cartridge gun shooters, I like to believe it isn't for muzzleloader shooters,,, but have doubts)
The standards folks have will run the gamut from very exacting to being based on, "good enough."
A lot of truth there. I have to admit when I shoot the Walker I love the fire, smoke, and noise but it also happens to be one of my most accurate revolvers once you adjust POA for elevation. And yep, plenty of times I'll look at a target after shooting and say, "that guy is dead-good enough!"Oh boy....
This will get interesting..... and contentious.
Basically it is different for most everyone depending on their needs and uses for a muzzloader,, and what type of muzzleloader. And, unfortunately, like the centerfire world,,, I suspect some have no standards, just make noise and smoke. (I know this to be true for cartridge gun shooters, I like to believe it isn't for muzzleloader shooters,,, but have doubts)
The standards folks have will run the gamut from very exacting to being based on, "good enough."
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These days with a .50 cal. and peep sight, off the bench at 60 yds. , if I can keep a 4 inch group i'm happy , it's a good day.
Banjoman
Hillbilly
I’d say that actual group sizes some folks usually shoot are like the big fish that got away.
Gsjcky
32 Cal
Thank you for the quick responses. Looks like I found a subject everyone has an opinion on.
First off, I AM an average shooter. I have a 22-250 I call coyotes with. Off the bench, with bags, it’s a .75 moa rifle. Sitting on a stand, shooting off sticks, a 200 yard coyote is a looong way away. Realistic.
I’m new to muzzle loading, and trying to get a feel for the sport. Guess I’m looking for guide lines. My goal is to be able to shoot Elk to 100 yards(?). Now I will not be able to do that if my groups are 8” at 50 yards. But I also Don’t know if a 1.5” group at 50 yards is a realistic goal off of bags. Again…… looking for guidelines.
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First off, I AM an average shooter. I have a 22-250 I call coyotes with. Off the bench, with bags, it’s a .75 moa rifle. Sitting on a stand, shooting off sticks, a 200 yard coyote is a looong way away. Realistic.
I’m new to muzzle loading, and trying to get a feel for the sport. Guess I’m looking for guide lines. My goal is to be able to shoot Elk to 100 yards(?). Now I will not be able to do that if my groups are 8” at 50 yards. But I also Don’t know if a 1.5” group at 50 yards is a realistic goal off of bags. Again…… looking for guidelines.
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ronaldrothb49
45 Cal.
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It depends on the type of shooting you are going to be doing. 99% of my shooting has been in competition or in practicing for it. What I would like to see every time is like the picture I posted. Any rifle I own even if it is just for hunting I expect to shoot a 1 hole group, then the rest is up to me. Anytime I can walk off the firing line at the end of the day and say I have shot the best I could that day then I am a winner no matter where I am in the standings. Been many times I have shot a group like that and all I got was a good smoke award.
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Gsjcky
32 Cal
I shoot quite a bit of paper, but all the range time I put in is to get ready for hunting season. I have a 54 cal renagade that has up graded sights. The rest is stock. Max range is what ever I can hit a paper plate consistently from field positions. I would love to shoot groups like that…… but…. lol
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Banjoman
Hillbilly
A 1.5” group off bags is a realistic goal. I’ve done it with a .50 caliber Thompson Center Hawken and a .50 caliber Traditions Kentucky rifle. Just run of the mill muzzleloaders. The challenge is to be able to do it consistently, but it’s not that hard.
At my last range session, I shot a 4 inch group at 75 yards off my elbows (no bags) with a .50 caliber Traditions Kentucky. The load was 50 grains of Pyrodex P (3f), cotton patch with spit and beeswax/olive oil lube and a .490 home cast round ball. Next time, I hope to remember and take the sand bags
. But, knowing me, I’ll probably do good to shoot an 8 inch group!I was able to cover this group with my hand.
Here’s my first group with the Rawken, off hand standing at about 35 yards. Just plinking. The bore in this gun is as rough as a Tennessee back road (or main road) but it still shoots.
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Smooth bore or rifled gun? Handgun or long gun? Front sight only? From a bench, offhand or with sticks? Roundball or conical? Target or hunting load? 32 caliber or larger? Flint or percussion? Plenty of variations.
Your OP is a wide open question. You ask for a standard in the blackpowder world compared to a one inch group in the CF world, yet only mention a 22-250. Does your one inch group standard apply to Milsurp CF guns? Lever action guns? Shotguns shooting slugs? Handguns?
You may want to narrow things down a bit.
Best target I ever shot at a hundred yards,bottom , target with my hunter at fifty. Top, I’m almost exclusively smoothbore these days.
Some years ago was at the range when some guys showed up to sight in for deer season. I was shooting at fifty yard and hitting well for me, all in the eight ring most in the nine and two or three in the ten, no ribbon
The breechloader shooters were impressed. In twenty shots they didn’t have one in the black…. Or red in that case, but they judged it as good enough for their hunt
Some years ago was at the range when some guys showed up to sight in for deer season. I was shooting at fifty yard and hitting well for me, all in the eight ring most in the nine and two or three in the ten, no ribbon
The breechloader shooters were impressed. In twenty shots they didn’t have one in the black…. Or red in that case, but they judged it as good enough for their hunt
Realistic accuracy at a 100, a 2" to 3" group is more than acceptable for hunting.
One hole groups from a gun every time it goes to the range for what ever reason, and for how many shots fired, is not a possible reality. I have been told of these guns, but yet to see one, Everybody shoots a screamer or two now and then, some refer to them as "wallet groups" to show off. Competition shooters often refer to how well they are shooting by what their aggregate is, which means "ALL" groups, not just the best are added together and averaged out. All them "oops" shots are figured in. For no other reason other than my own, this is how I refer to my firearms when asked. Every time I shoot a group, regardless of group quantity, with any of my guns I keep a record of group size, date and conditions. plus load data. I start from day one shooting the gun, in whatever the conditions of the day are. There are target firearms and there are hunting firearms, it is possible to combine the two but more easily said than done.
