Acurracy using subs?

[Runner]

On the other forum the powder discussion turned up several folks that are discussing how hard it is to get accuracy using any of the subs. For my own part, I have found Pyrodex P to be the most accurate powder for me overall thru the years. My Mountain rifle loves RS. My 36 shoots good with anything, but 3f 777 is noticably more accurate in it than the others. I wonder if most folks find that they can't get good groups using any of the subs?

 

[Mad Professor]

Have you compared these to real quality BP? If not you might be surprised!

 

[Runner]

Yes, I have burned over 50 pounds of real black thru my guns. Graf's is top for accuracy over Goex. I have not used Swiss tho. I have been doing this since before sabots came on the market. Most of the folks I know hate Pyrodex because it is harder take care of guns using it, it is harder to ignite, it stinks worse than black, and it costs more. I just never heard of anyone having prolems getting good accuracy out of it before. P has always been the most accurate or close in just about every gun I have ever owned. The little 36 with 20 grains of 3f 777 is better than I can aim it at 30 yards.

There are many reasons why to choose real black over the others, but accuracy has never been one of them for me. Right now I am shooting 5$ a pound Pyrodex from the after season sales at Wally World. Black is 15$ a pound and the closest it 35 miles of city inner belt type traffic away. If I could not get good accuracy with pyrodex, I would be driving to Graf's to get some black.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I've used Pyro 'P' grade in my .50. I always do just as I've loaded BP, dump the charge then whack the breech area opposite the lock few times with palm of my hand to knock some grains into drum channel. Instant BOOM with regular CCI caps. But I installed a "HOT SHOT' nipple. I can't tell any accuracy difference between it and 3f BP. 2" groups or maybe better on a good day at 50 yds. off a rest. Really good days I've shot sub 1" groups, but that's rare for me. It is the devil to clean tho, but just a little more time. the infamous 'crud ring' near the breech is what makes it bad near as I can tell.

 

[johnathon]

I see no real accuracy difference with pyrodex or black but prefer black for the absolute certainty of ignition with caps, and in the flinter nothing else will do

 

[J.D.]

If the best you can do is a little less than 2 inch groups at 50 yards off a rest, you might want to do a little more load developement.

Many shooters shoot less than 2 inch groups OFF HAND at 50 yards, not to mention shooting one hole groups from a rest.
J.D.

 

[Walker357]

At my age with my eyes it would necessitate a large hole for me to put all my shots in it. :grin:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

One-hole groups, wow- that is remarkable :bow: . Like I say a real good day for me I have put 1" groups together, I think that is not bad for my eyesight (and primitive sights) shooting my CVA .50 with short barrel(24") using an `06 caseful of Pyro 'P'. Anyway that load has accounted for many meals of tasty venison. All but one were one-shot kills, most of them dropped where they stood or went a few leaps.

 

[Runner]

Ok, I will bite. Where do you find folks that regularly shoot under two inches offhand at 50 yards using open irons?

 

Ok, I will bite. Where do you find folks that regularly shoot under two inches offhand at 50 yards using open irons?

Yep, if they could make it all the way to Friendship IN they could take home a national trophy! The offhand national champ was shooting about 2" @ 25 yards.

I saw a bunch of bench guns that would not hold inside 2" @ 50 in Sept.

Ain't it strange how the best shots in the world never make it to a match? Or they don't care nothing about target shooting, or shooting in front of witnesses in general, or the wind is blowing wrong, or the light is bad....

 

[J.D.]

Ok, I will bite. Where do you find folks that regularly shoot under two inches offhand at 50 yards using open irons?

Yep, if they could make it all the way to Friendship IN they could take home a national trophy! The offhand national champ was shooting about 2" @ 25 yards.

I saw a bunch of bench guns that would not hold inside 2" @ 50 in Sept.

Ain't it strange how the best shots in the world never make it to a match? Or they don't care nothing about target shooting, or shooting in front of witnesses in general, or the wind is blowing wrong, or the light is bad....

I've done it, and I have seen others do the same.

I have shot 3-4" groups at the same distance with the smoothbore too.

AS to being interested in competeting at Freindship, not interested.

I had my fill of serious competition when competing with the MONG state high power rifle team. I was getting waaaayyy too serious about competition, to the point that it wasn't fun any more. I shoot these old guns for fun, not to get stressed out when a poor score is fired.

Six inch, 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards, off hand with the iron sighted M-16 were so common that no one would even comment about such an ordinarily nice group.

12-14 inch groups fired with an iron sighted M-14 at 200 yards, off hand, were as common, so yeah, I know how to shoot. And I have competed against folks who consistently fired better scores than that.

The last time I went to the range, my last shot with an M71 Browning, 348 cut the center of the X on an NRA small bore rifle target, fired off hand at 100 yards. I am very pleasantly surprised at the accuracy of this rifle. Most lever guns leave something to be desired in accuracy.

Again, I can consistently cut the X ring at 100 yards off hand with this rifle. It drives my 28 year old son nuts, because he can barely keep 'em all on the black with this same gun.

This rifle is equipped with an aperture receiver sight and the factory front sight, BTW.

That said, I have shot 2 inch groups off hand at 50 yards with both caplock and flintlock rifles, and have seen others do the same. That doesn't mean that it happens every time, or even every day, just that it can be done with some consistency.

And, IMHO, a rifle that won't hold a 2 inch group from a rest at 50 yards needs more load developement. Anyone who can't shoot the occasional 1 inch group, or better, from a rest at 50 yards needs more practice.

J.D.

 

[Runner]

I've fired .10 five shot groups off the bench at 50 yards, and can do so again if needed. That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, this site, or this discussion. My 12x mildot AO scope just isn't considered traditional, and they will not let me use my screw adjustable solid front and back cradle rest at the traditional matches either. I will head shoot the military drop tagets with a 16 at 300 meters, but that again has no bearing on this subject. Peeps are not allowed in any off hand match that I know of, and very few of us use them. I have shot 2 inch five shot groups off hand too. Once in a blue moon I do better than that. My average off hand at 50 yards using open irons is more like 2.5 to 4 inches. 6 inches at 100 yards offhand at 100 yards would have won the class in either flint or percussion at the Mo. State match this year according to reports. In other words, I don't believe you can shoot two back to back five shot groups under three inches off hand at fifty yards, much less 1 inchers. I am considered pretty good and I would consider two back to back five shot 2 inch groups off hand at fifty yards a banner day to brag about. I hear lots of this BS, but I have never seen it backed up even once. Maybe there are others here that have seen this amazing off hand accuracy with an open sighted muzzleloader that could back you up? There are some very good shooters here other than you too! Maybe they will agree with you, but I would not hold my breath!

2 inch groups off the bench with traditional opens is nothing to be ashamed of. Several of my guns will do much better, but then you add me into the equation.

When I want to do accuracy, I shoot several match accurate air pistols at 10 meters. I expect ten shot ragged hole groups when I do. Of course, the guns are good enough to shoot one hole groups barely bigger than the pellets at that range. Again, that is not with a muzzleloading pistol and traditional opens. If I want to do 50 yard groups, I fire up the Techstar and get out the rests and sandbags. It will shoot into the same hole at 50 yards every shot if I do my part.
That has absolutely nothing to do with shooting an open sighted factory muzzleloader into 2 inches at 50 yards off hand either.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

You betcha I ain't ashamed of 2" 50 yd. bench-rest groups with my CVA. I call it 'minute of deer' accuracy. gonna have me some venison steak and gravy with my grits for breakfast fo shore! :hatsoff:

 

[J.D.]

I like the way some people read half a post, get their panties in a bunch, and stretch it to extremes.

Read my last post. I did not say that I or anyone else has fired 2 inch groups, every time, off hand, at 50 yards.

If you would take the time to actually read my last post, you will see that what was said was;
"I have shot 2 inch groups off hand at 50 yards with both caplock and flintlock rifles, and have seen others do the same. That doesn't mean that it happens every time, or even every day, just that it can be done with some consistency."

GET THAT? Not every time, but with some consistency. Take the time to read the posts!

2 inch groups off the bench with traditional opens is nothing to be ashamed of.

And no, 2 inch groups at 50 yards from a rest are nothing to be ashamed of. I never said they were. Again, this is a case of reading something into a post that wasn't there.

READ THE POST, THE WHOLE POST, AND NOTHING BUT THE POST.

Several of my guns will do much better, but then you add me into the equation.

Your response says it all. The guns are capable, but you are not. Is that what This sentence means?

The gun is capable of one hole groups at 50 yards? But you are not capable of shooting those groups? isn't that what you said?

This supports the statement that a gun that won't shoot less than 2 inch groups off a bench needs more load developement, and that anyone who can't shoot a one hole group from a rest, with some consistency, needs more practice.

When I want to do accuracy, I shoot several match accurate air pistols at 10 meters. I expect ten shot ragged hole groups when I do.

Is it possible that you do not shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yards off hand with a ML because you do not expect that it is possible? Not to mention that you do not practice to shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yards?

However, you do believe that it is possible to shoot one hole groups with the air pistol, therefore you expect to accomplish that? Hmmmm.

Therefore, you don't believe that you can shoot 2 inch groups off hand at 50 yards, nor do you practice with the intent, or expectation of shooting 2 inch groups, so you don't believe anyone else can do it either? Hmmmm, interesting.

No one believed that a runner could break the four minute mile...until it was done. Now it's to be expected.

J.D.

 

[Runner]

JD, most of the folks here are in the fanatic end of the hobby. I doubt seriously if 8 out of ten of them can shoot a 2 inch group at 50 yards off the bench consistantly with traditional irons. I still don't believe you could shoot two back to back 3 inch five shot groups off hand at 50 yards.
I did read your post, and I do speak the lanquage. You told another man talking about good groups at 50 yards that he needs to work on his load because his groups are too big, and that he should be getting his bench groups offhand if he would just practice and work up a proper load. That is pure BS. That is high class shooting with a traditional open sighted muzzleloader offhand if you can do it consistantly. Put up or drop it. If you demand world class from others, lead the way!
I have an indoor 10 meter range that gets used most days. I have a 45 yard range in the yard that gets used several times a week. I have a 200 yard range with 30, 50, and 100 yard targets also that sees a lot of use.

 

[J.D.]

JD, most of the folks here are in the fanatic end of the hobby. I doubt seriously if 8 out of ten of them can shoot a 2 inch group at 50 yards off the bench consistantly with traditional irons.

In your last post you said the guns are capable of that sort of accuracy, then why is it impossible?
Its imposible to you because you don't beleive it is possible.

When I was shooting 25 pounds of powder in about 9 months time, it wasn't all that uncommon to shoot a 2 inch group off hand. NOT EVERY TIME, and NOT EVERY DAY, but not all that uncommon.

I will have to admit that now that I'm lucky to burn 5 pounds of powder in two or three years that it is far more difficult. My eyes are not as good either.

Practice is the key, and I maintain that anyone with good eyes and good reflexes, and who believes he can perform at that level, and who wants to practice enough, can shoot those kinds of groups.

I still don't believe you could shoot two back to back 3 inch five shot groups off hand at 50 yards.
I did read your post, and I do speak the lanquage.

Ok, so you speak the language, which language?
Where did I say I could shoot those kinds of groups every time out? I said with some consistency. How does that translate to every time? Which language do you speak? Apparently not the one I'm writing.

You told another man talking about good groups at 50 yards that he needs to work on his load because his groups are too big, and that he should be getting his bench groups offhand if he would just practice and work up a proper load. That is pure BS.

Yes, I did say that with more load developement and practice he can shoot better groups. What's wrong with that? Why is that BS, because you can't do it?

You made the statement that even your guns were capable of one hole, five shot accuracy, so what's the problem? Are they or aren't they?

If the guns are capable of that kind of accuracy, why is it impossible for anyone who practices dilligently to shoot those kinds of groups.

It's physically possible, so why can't it be done?

Oh, I get it, it can't be done simply because you say it can't be done? That's not good enough.

That is high class shooting with a traditional open sighted muzzleloader offhand if you can do it consistantly. Put up or drop it. If you demand world class from others, lead the way!

Yes, that is very good shooting, and I believe anyone who believes in themself and who is willing to put forth the time and effort can shoot that well.

You want a demonstration?
Ok, I will need some time for practice. Practice is the key, right? No one can perform that well without practice, and I haven't shot 5 pounds of powder in the last three years.

I have shot those kinds of groups in the past, and I believe I can do it again, with enough practice.

I have an indoor 10 meter range that gets used most days. I have a 45 yard range in the yard that gets used several times a week. I have a 200 yard range with 30, 50, and 100 yard targets also that sees a lot of use.

And your point?
J.D.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Gentlemen: If anyone wants to shoot small groups at 50 yds off-hand, he needs to practice shooting those same sized groups at 75 and 100 yds. When he can get close at those distances, he will have little problem doing so at 50 yds.

I have taken students out with handguns and showed them how to shoot and hit targets at 50, 75, 100, 150, and 200 yds with their handguns. Then I let them shoot at what they thought was a long target at 25 yds. They laugh when they see how small the groups sizes are, even shooting rapid fire. Take them into 15 yds. or 10 yds, and 7 yds, as on the PPC courses, and they shoot all X's. What they thought was a difficult shot no longer is.

There are obvious limitations to each shooters abilities, their eyesight, and experiences as a shooters. Most are carrying around some bad habits they don't know they have. All these affect group size, and success at shooting at targets of any kind. Then there are the limitations of rifles and sights. Throw in indifference to loading procedures and your groups are bound to open. Most guns are still capable of shooting better accuracy than the shooters can shoot.

May I suggest you work on your shooting skills and worry less about the gun or sights?

 

[Runner]

I work on it evry day just about Paul. Currently because of the health thing, I have been shooting opens on an old Benjamin at 10 yards. The trigger makes you think about what you are doing every shot. It is safe for my inside range, and plenty accurate with the right pellets. Outdoors, I shoot at little bitty things off hand mostly.
I am not trying to get better really. I do want to keep my skills sharp tho. Oh, I am learning to target shoot with a pistol one handed! Not to compete, but because I just like it!
JD, you win! I am a slob that can't be bothered to work up loads for my guns. I can't shoot them very well either I guess, and I am not ambitious enough to want to get better either it seems! Your a better man than me!

 

[J.D.]

I work on it evry day just about Paul. Currently because of the health thing, I have been shooting opens on an old Benjamin at 10 yards.

I learned long ago that success in any sport is about 90% positive mental attitude, 8% skill, and 2% luck.

Belief in oneself and belief in one's equipment is as important, if not more so than having good equipment.

All of the practice in the world won't compensate for someone who believes that they can't accomplish a given goal.

JD, you win! I am a slob that can't be bothered to work up loads for my guns. I can't shoot them very well either I guess, and I am not ambitious enough to want to get better either it seems! Your a better man than me!

I don't believe that for a minute. I'm no better than anyone, and most are better than I.

When I began shooting a flint rifle, there were few shooters who would attempt to compete with a flint gun. It was thought that flint guns were not capable of the accuracy of a comparable cap gun.

My friends, at least I thought they were my friends, derided me for even considering shooting a flint gun at local rendezvous. They also believed the fallicy that someone shooting a flint gun could not compete with competitors shooting cap guns.

An acquaintace took me aside and gave me some very good advice regarding how one can learn to shoot a flint gun well.

His advise was to replace the flint with a hardwood block and dry fire at a spot on the wall, several times a day, for two weeks. This excercise conditioned my mind and body to the action of the lock and taught good follow through.

Training for the next two weeks consisted of flashing powder in the pan to get used to the fire and smoke associated with firing a flint gun, as well as continuing the mental and physical conditioning associated with the movement of the lock components.

Training for the following two months consisted of firing live rounds at a range of 15-20 feet using a powder charge of 20-30 gr, in a 54 cal rifle.

The object of this practice was not to hit the target, but to condition my mind and body to follow through until the ball struck the target.

All of the shots hit 8-10 inches low, but good groups began to appear very quickly.

I attended my first rendezvous with the intention of competing with a flintgun shortly after completing this three month training period.

My "friends" had a good laugh when they saw that I did, indeed, plan to compete with a flint rifle.

One commented derisively, "go ahead and shoot."

I did shoot and I beat all of my critics badly, taking third place in a field of 90-100 shooters.

Nothing was said to my "friends" about beating them so badly. The scores spoke for themselves.

Without that one person who believed in me and encouraged me, I would not have learned to shoot as well as I did.

My intent is to encourage everyone to excell at what ever endeavor they may choose.

Encouragement from just one person can make the difference between success and failure.

My intent is to be that one person.

Merry Christmas.
J.D.

 

[RedFeather]

I can shoot ten shot one-hole groups offhand all day long, no problem. The trick, you see, is target placement. Just be sure that all ten targets are firmly placed one atop the other. You will get a single hole through them every time. Go ahead, amaze your friends! (Or is that "amuse"? Never could tell which.) :thumbsup:

ps - It sometimes gets taken the wrong way when you start your reply "Well, hell, anyone can do THAT, can't YOU???"