Yup, you heard it here first....it's a nasty condition for which I am seeking a cure. Let me explain... I recently took delivery of a custom .54 caliber Dave Doliver Hawken...and a thing of beauty she is. Great trigger, scary accurate and a great piece of wood. It is built on an early style Hawken square (as opposed to a later-style slant) patent breech. After about ten shots, I start getting mis-fires that require me to pull the nipple to correct. My guess is that the patent breech gets gunked up, impeding the spark from reaching the charge. As I was told last night, a spark is a wonderous thing...but it can't turn corners. I am guessing the solution to this (not counting rebreeching the rifle)is maybe a different nipple and possibly magnum caps to give me the most spark possible. So, doctors...any suggestions to cure what ails me?
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Acute Patent Breech Poisoning
- Thread starter Mossyrock
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roger sells
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Depending upon the breech that was used, normally the flame has one 45 degree turn before the flame goes into the back of the breech chamber. I guess there could be something wrong with the way the breech was machined, but I have not seen a problem with the 14 Hawkens I have made over the years.
I did have a fouling problem one fall where the rifle would foul after about 6 to 7 shots. When I would clean the rifle, a greasey residue would come out on the patch. I had been using a can of powder that I had in the shop for many years. I went to a new can of powder and the problem went away. The rifle would not make a cracking sound when fired with the powder that fouled, and the new can of powder sounded normal. I had killed a deer a couple days early from close range and the ball had not exited the opposide side of the lung area when shot. Later in the week, I killed another dear on the same trail, from the same stand, and in the same lung area, and the ball exited the back side of the deer. I felt he powder had gotten old or contaminated in some way and caused the problem. It may be worth your time to shoot some rounds using a different powder source to verify that there is nothing wrong with the powder.
Roger Sells
I did have a fouling problem one fall where the rifle would foul after about 6 to 7 shots. When I would clean the rifle, a greasey residue would come out on the patch. I had been using a can of powder that I had in the shop for many years. I went to a new can of powder and the problem went away. The rifle would not make a cracking sound when fired with the powder that fouled, and the new can of powder sounded normal. I had killed a deer a couple days early from close range and the ball had not exited the opposide side of the lung area when shot. Later in the week, I killed another dear on the same trail, from the same stand, and in the same lung area, and the ball exited the back side of the deer. I felt he powder had gotten old or contaminated in some way and caused the problem. It may be worth your time to shoot some rounds using a different powder source to verify that there is nothing wrong with the powder.
Roger Sells
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This'll lead back to an argumentative thread about slapping the action, but that's not my intent. Whether you slap it shake it or tilt it, try to make sure that extra powder gets back into the flame channel and closer to the nipple.
Also consider if you're swabbing between shots and shoving fouling back down there.
Also take a look at your powder. What are you using? If 2f, try 3f. If a sub, try real black.
I've got a range of breech types in my assorted guns. One of those usually solved the issue.
The worst for misfires had a drum bolster, and the previous owner got to chasing his tale with it, I think. When I got it there was a musket nipple in place, and sure enough it was the dickens to get the thing to shoot after a couple of three shots with Pyro RS and regular caps. Mag caps helped a little, but not enough. "Fire" nipples helped a litte, but not enough. Goex 2f helped but not enough. Goex 3f helped, but not enough.
I was about ready to pull the bolster just to see what the heck was going on. It felt kinda funny down there when cleaning. I couldn't get a scraper to bottom out, and a bore brush with a patch around it would come out with this black band just about as far forward from the breech face as the bolster.
Long story getting longer, it turns out that the previous owner had managed to bake on a mound of fouling right around the entrance to the bolster and sticking out into the bore. Once I scraped that out with no small effort and got the gun really clean, it will digest almost anything. But it always gets my special attention (and a fouling scraper) when I clean it.
Also consider if you're swabbing between shots and shoving fouling back down there.
Also take a look at your powder. What are you using? If 2f, try 3f. If a sub, try real black.
I've got a range of breech types in my assorted guns. One of those usually solved the issue.
The worst for misfires had a drum bolster, and the previous owner got to chasing his tale with it, I think. When I got it there was a musket nipple in place, and sure enough it was the dickens to get the thing to shoot after a couple of three shots with Pyro RS and regular caps. Mag caps helped a little, but not enough. "Fire" nipples helped a litte, but not enough. Goex 2f helped but not enough. Goex 3f helped, but not enough.
I was about ready to pull the bolster just to see what the heck was going on. It felt kinda funny down there when cleaning. I couldn't get a scraper to bottom out, and a bore brush with a patch around it would come out with this black band just about as far forward from the breech face as the bolster.
Long story getting longer, it turns out that the previous owner had managed to bake on a mound of fouling right around the entrance to the bolster and sticking out into the bore. Once I scraped that out with no small effort and got the gun really clean, it will digest almost anything. But it always gets my special attention (and a fouling scraper) when I clean it.
zimmerstutzen
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When the gun is clean and the nipple is pulled, can you see how large the flash channel is? or even how long into the breech chamber. I have seen occaisional patent breeches in which the flash channel is abnormally narrow or isn't fully drilled through to the breech chamber. In one case we pulled the breech and merely relieved a little metal from around the point where the flash channel "emptied" into the breech chamber. (Dremel tool with small grinder bit) And that did the trick. In manufacturing a metal burr was still hanging out and over the flash channel preventing the 2f powder from getting back to the flash channel. The fire from the nipple should be able to reach down into the gun, but the longer the reach, the more likely there will be a misfire. I'm not sure of how far the fire from a perc cap will travel down a flash channel. Apparently enough to reach Pyro pellets.
ohio ramrod
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My first question is how tight is the cleaning patch asuming you are swabbing between shots.? What you want is a patch that goes down easily and then bunches up and comes out harder than it went in. You want to slide past the fouling and then pull it out. If your swabing patch is too tight you will push fouling down into the breach and after a while the gun will have a breech full of fouling.Also what powder are you using ? Some foul worse than others, FF more than FFF.
cowpoke1955
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Have you contacted the builder? He may be willing to help with the problem. They usually want to have happy customers. Maybe this is why they changed the early model breach the the later model :hmm: Just a thought.
Mossyrock said:
That's really surprising, regardless if its a 90 degree or 45 degree intersection between the channel and the lower powder chamber of the P/B...my experience with quite a few is that they are basically self cleaning and very reliable.
The top powder chamber should have such a reduced diameter compared to the bore, resulting in a shoulder on top of the threaded section which the cleaning patch & jag come to a stop at...way up above the lower powder chamber, and of course way, way, up above the fire channel from the nipple.
What do you do to clean under the nipple...run a pipe cleaner through the channel towards the lower powder chamber?
And if so do you feel any drag on it?
Do you have an air compressor handy at home that might let you get a sense of how open that whole flow area is?
Or, if you pop a cap on an empty barrel with the muzzle near a blade of grass or piece of paper, does the object move with some authority?
If it was me I'd be leaning towards the suggestions of the fire channel being to small in diameter or partically obstructed so that even the little bit of residue from burning powder itself starts to clog up the flow :hmm:
OK, to answer the questions, I am using Goex fffg and I am not cleaning between shots. I pull the nipple everytime a clean, ensuring the nipple and breech are clean and dry. A popped cap on an empty barrel moves grass as it should. I will take a look at the fire channel to see what I can see. I just hope I don't have to unbreech the barrel to solve this...
I would get a worm in that breach area, and do some digging. There maybe something in there causing this situation. I had a rifle where a piece of patch was stuck in the breach, and causing very similar effect!
Why not ask Dave? He's one of the best and most experienced gun smiths out there and I'd bet if he knew there was a "problem" he'd find the fix - besides which he's one heck of a nice guy! IMO - ANYTIME you have a problem with a custom gun first thing to do is go ask the maker - if he shines you on then and only then do ask folks how-to.......without seeing the gun first hand and how it's exactly made everything is a guesstimate at best....
Pure BS - not only does a caplock not produce a spark - it produces a high intensity flame as does a flintlock (albeit not as high intensity) - and yes that flame can follow a corner - don't believe me? look at the pictures/videos by Larry Pletcher of locks and their ignition paths and if that's not enough then go ask a fireman about flames....
Mossyrock said:
You should be discussing the misfire issues with the builder first, not announcing you have a problem with the gun the guy built you, which may or maynot be the problem. If you have a problem with it, give the guy a chance to make it right. Maybe it is not the firearm.............. :hmm:
Actually, it is quite probably my technique... I have long been in the habit, during target shoots, of giving the barrel a quick cleaning between target sets. This particular rifle doesn't seem to be as forgiving of this as my other rifles are. I suspect that I am loading the patent breech up with gunk when I swap the barrel every 5-10 shots. At my next shoot, I am going to see if I can go all 15-20 shots without swabbing at all.
Also, please don't take what I wrote above as ANY sort of slam on the maker, Mr. Dave Doliver! A nicer guy and greater craftsman cannot be found! The problems I am having are more likely a reflection on my technique and a patent breech in general.
Also, please don't take what I wrote above as ANY sort of slam on the maker, Mr. Dave Doliver! A nicer guy and greater craftsman cannot be found! The problems I am having are more likely a reflection on my technique and a patent breech in general.
If you are swabbing with a standard cleaning jag & patching materials, those are two things that could be the problem. You need to modify the jag like this. See how the lands of the jag are tapered back ?
Put the jag in a drill or drill press, turn the first land down about .010 smaller than the other 2-3 lands & then taper them so they have a sharp edge tapering back, using a small tri-corner file. This give a arrowhead effect & the jag will let the patch push past the fouling & gather when you pull out & pull allot of the fouling with it.
Also you don't use a tight patch, you are not cleaning the barrel, you are swabbing it to keep the barrel conditions the same from shot to shot.
I use old tee shirt material as it is thin, flexible & cheap. I never use ball patching. It is too stiff & too thick & just shoves all the fouling right to the breech.
Last, if you are getting wet goop in the breech after swabbing, you are using too much liquid. Try a damp patch not a wet one. And you must adjust this as you shoot by looking at this fouling & make your swabbing solution more or less to keep it from becoming black mud. Then a dry one if necessary, but Not a tight dry one or you may end up having to shoot the jag out :shocked2:
And get ya a correct caliber breech scraper & file it as shown & about every 10-15 shots clean the breech face off & it will keep fouling from building at the corner of the breech. Notice the angled cut is Opposite the way you think, as the cut part is away from you, but when you file it is it towards you
So file it so you have to turn it to the Right (righty-tighty) to cut the fouling & thus keep the scraper screwed in to the range rod. :thumbsup:
Put the jag in a drill or drill press, turn the first land down about .010 smaller than the other 2-3 lands & then taper them so they have a sharp edge tapering back, using a small tri-corner file. This give a arrowhead effect & the jag will let the patch push past the fouling & gather when you pull out & pull allot of the fouling with it.
Also you don't use a tight patch, you are not cleaning the barrel, you are swabbing it to keep the barrel conditions the same from shot to shot.
I use old tee shirt material as it is thin, flexible & cheap. I never use ball patching. It is too stiff & too thick & just shoves all the fouling right to the breech.
Last, if you are getting wet goop in the breech after swabbing, you are using too much liquid. Try a damp patch not a wet one. And you must adjust this as you shoot by looking at this fouling & make your swabbing solution more or less to keep it from becoming black mud. Then a dry one if necessary, but Not a tight dry one or you may end up having to shoot the jag out :shocked2:
And get ya a correct caliber breech scraper & file it as shown & about every 10-15 shots clean the breech face off & it will keep fouling from building at the corner of the breech. Notice the angled cut is Opposite the way you think, as the cut part is away from you, but when you file it is it towards you
So file it so you have to turn it to the Right (righty-tighty) to cut the fouling & thus keep the scraper screwed in to the range rod. :thumbsup:
Mossyrock said:
A good percussion breech should be angle drilled from the powder chamber in the breech to the nipple. No turns. This requires short threads on the plug.
You might try Swiss powder and/or FFFG if you are using FFG.
If the powder you are using is producing flakes of fouling in the bore these can effectively close off the flash channel.
If it is an angle drilled breech it may have too small a flash channel. This can be enlarged somewhat be not all the way to the nipple. It has to be done by someone who understands the problems involved with doing this or the breech can be made unusable.
Dan
Actually the term "swabbing" sets my back hair on end when we are talking about the process to remove most of the fouling between shots.
To me, "swabbing" means the patch is very wet and it is repeatedly run up and down the bore to "swab" it as in "swabbing the decks".
This technique is exactly the wrong one to use between shots. It's great for cleaning the gun when you get home but to "clean between shots" the shooter does not need or want to use a very wet patch or multiple strokes.
IMO, it should be slightly wetter than damp.
It is then run to the bottom of the bore in one smooth stroke and left to sit there for about 4 or 5 seconds. It is then pulled back out of the bore in one smooth stroke.
This can be followed by one dry patch which is run down the bore to the breech plug and then pulled back out, again using one smooth motion.
Using this method the dampened patch will wet the fouling on the walls of the bore.
The 4-5 second wait allows the water to penetrate the fouling and soften it.
Removing the dampened patch in one smooth upstroke will catch and remove almost all of the fouling without allowing any to break free and fall to the bottom of the bore into the chambered breech area.
The one dry patch is just to help dry the bore so that the next powder load isn't wetted.
Also, I agree that the wiping patch must not be a thick shooting patch. The fairly light weight "cleaning patches" they sell to clean modern guns works very well.
Oh. Speaking of those cleaning patches if you get the ones for cleaning a .45 Colt or Auto they are just the right size for wiping the bore of any muzzleloader from a .45 up to a .54.
To me, "swabbing" means the patch is very wet and it is repeatedly run up and down the bore to "swab" it as in "swabbing the decks".
This technique is exactly the wrong one to use between shots. It's great for cleaning the gun when you get home but to "clean between shots" the shooter does not need or want to use a very wet patch or multiple strokes.
IMO, it should be slightly wetter than damp.
It is then run to the bottom of the bore in one smooth stroke and left to sit there for about 4 or 5 seconds. It is then pulled back out of the bore in one smooth stroke.
This can be followed by one dry patch which is run down the bore to the breech plug and then pulled back out, again using one smooth motion.
Using this method the dampened patch will wet the fouling on the walls of the bore.
The 4-5 second wait allows the water to penetrate the fouling and soften it.
Removing the dampened patch in one smooth upstroke will catch and remove almost all of the fouling without allowing any to break free and fall to the bottom of the bore into the chambered breech area.
The one dry patch is just to help dry the bore so that the next powder load isn't wetted.
Also, I agree that the wiping patch must not be a thick shooting patch. The fairly light weight "cleaning patches" they sell to clean modern guns works very well.
Oh. Speaking of those cleaning patches if you get the ones for cleaning a .45 Colt or Auto they are just the right size for wiping the bore of any muzzleloader from a .45 up to a .54.
varsity07840
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zimmerstutzen said:
The breech chamber itself could be the problem. Some of them are very small in diameter. fouling builds up at the mouth of the chamber, preventing powder from filling it up. Sometimes they're not drilled properly. I had that problem with my flint Mortimer and enlarging the chamber was the fix.
Duane
I've also seen some shooters leave the fired cap on the nipple or leave the hammer sitting on the nipple while they reload.
By doing either of these things, the blast of air under the patched ball can't blow out thru the nipple carrying the loose powder back into the flame channel that connects the powder chamber with the nipple.
This often leads to slow ignition or mis-fires.
For that reason, it's a good idea to uncap the nipple and raise the hammer to half cock before loading the next shot.
By doing either of these things, the blast of air under the patched ball can't blow out thru the nipple carrying the loose powder back into the flame channel that connects the powder chamber with the nipple.
This often leads to slow ignition or mis-fires.
For that reason, it's a good idea to uncap the nipple and raise the hammer to half cock before loading the next shot.
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