Advantages/Disadvantages of 3f with Shot???

[IanH]

What you are missing is, economy, you use less, when you use less the burn is peaking earlier, the further away from the muzzle peak P is the better.

I don't care what your pooter says re velocity.
In the real world it works and my testing reveals better pellet penetration and birds falling out of the sky, not bits of clay being chipped.

Okay, first paragraph makes sense and is part of what I was suspecting.

Second paragraph, your logic goes completely off the rails.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Walt,
Up the page you show some dense little patterns.
What range were they shot at ?

 

[Britsmoothy]

My question is dies the lower muzzle pressure of the finer powder improve patterns?

I find it does.

This is where your shot pellets get crushed and hurt your pattern if you don't use extra buffer.

An assumption!
Have you measured shot deformation between your two examples?
I have not but I have observed deformation across the board but significantly less than a cartridge gun using shot and a nitro cartridge containing shot.
I don't use buffer or so call cushion wads.

In the 20-gauge with 90 grains 4F and 497 grains of payload the pressure was 26,000 PSI at the peak, double the pressure that the same quantity of 2F generated. The velocity difference was that 4F gained 75 fps for doubling pressure, not a good trade-off in my opinion since 26K psi is almost as high as maximum allowable "Trapdoor Springfield" 45/70 cartridge loads.

How the heck are you going to get 90 gn of black powder in a 45/70 case?
And it is not vented.
How do you assume how much is going to be leaked or lost via a vent?

 

[IanH]

(Snip)

However if you desire killing shots, not knock out of the air and have to pursue and wring necks, on larger birds such as pheasant, Canada geese, cranes, turkey, and the like, you need to consider a finer powder than FG or even FFG. Geese for example take big shot and high velocity/energy/momentum to cleanly kill. I use 1 3/4 ounce of BB or #2 Bismuth in my 10 guage over top of 100 grains of FFFG or even FFFFG to obtain the velocity/energy/momentum needed to cleanly kill these large birds. FG or FFG only knocks them down. Then I'm running or wading out to wring necks. Screw that. Kill them in the air. My Pedersoli Waterfowl Magnum 10 guage has not blown up yet and has slaughtered........er.... filled my freezer with countless geese now using FFFG or FFFFG. No pursuing or wringing necks.

(Snip)

1-3/4 ounces of shot in a 10 gauge with 100 grains of 4Fg:

Load density:​

100 %​

Pressure P-Max:​

21993 psi​

Bullet travel to P-Max:​

0.1 in.​

Muzzle velocity:​

1266 ft/sec.​

Muzzle energy:​

2726 ft-lbs.​

Muzzle pressure:​

304 psi​

Powder all burnt at:​

9.7 in.​

It would take 550 grains of 2F to reach similar peak pressure, and look at the velocity!

Load density:​

100 %​

Pressure P-Max:​

21177 psi​

Bullet travel to P-Max:​

0.7 in.​

Muzzle velocity:​

2160 ft/sec.​

Muzzle energy:​

7930 ft-lbs.​

Muzzle pressure:​

2635 psi​

Amount of powder burnt:​

99 %​

WARNING: This is a stupid load!​

So, do you think lower pellet velocity kills better, or is it something else?

 

[WALT53]

That's a lot more pressure than I figured it would be. Does it mention 4f pressure?

Walt,
Up the page you show some dense little patterns.
What range were they shot at ?

Hi Richard they were shot at about 23 yards ,the 24 gauge has a 26” barrel the 28 gauge a36“ barrel .I run out of time I have some more experimenting to do come warmer weather not that’s it’s real cold .

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Brit,
I believe Ian is talking about Pressure, not load.

Thank you Walt.

 

[Britsmoothy]

"I don't care what your pooter says re velocity.
In the real world it works and my testing reveals better pellet penetration and birds falling out of the sky, not bits of clay being chipped."
Does anyone here think this, my earlier comment, has " gone off the rails" or confuse you maybe?
Anyone?

 

[IanH]

How the heck are you going to get 90 gn of black powder in a 45/70 case?

That is SAAMI Pmax for smokeless powder loads.

 

[Britsmoothy]

That is SAAMI Pmax for smokeless powder loads.

Yes but why would you make a comparison so unrelated, oh, the narrative! I forgot, to suit the narrative.
No one has ever suggested using equal volumes of 4f in a shotgun. One of it's advantages is economy.
I am happy you agree on the lower muzzle pressure via your device. Thank God for that...

 

[IanH]

"I don't care what your pooter says re velocity.
In the real world it works and my testing reveals better pellet penetration and birds falling out of the sky, not bits of clay being chipped."
Does anyone here think this, my earlier comment, has " gone off the rails" or confuse you maybe?
Anyone?

Saying you get better kills with 4F at lower charge weights vs larger granulations/more powder has no physical reasoning of why. Saying 4F gives more speed simply isn't true. So what is it?

I'm betting your patterns are better with 4F due to lower muzzle pressure, but you and Northfork are beating the velocity/penetration drum which is, as I stated earlier, balderdash.

 

[IanH]

Yes but why would you make a comparison so unrelated, oh, the narrative! I forgot, to suit the narrative.
No one has ever suggested using equal volumes of 4f in a shotgun. One of it's advantages is economy.
I am happy you agree on the lower muzzle pressure via your device. Thank God for that...

I was simply explaining that my example load of 4F is into cartridge rifle pressure territory for which black powder shotguns are not designed to withstand. I believe this is the original point Mike was arguing as well, but now we have computer models to back that up.

I also showed you, if you would read it, that in Northfork's 4F goose load would take 550 grains of 2F to equal the peak pressure his 4F load is generating, which is insane. He could get 200 more FPS out if it at only 14,000 PSI instead of what he is getting at almost 22,000 PSI if he used 2F.

 

[WALT53]

Yes but why would you make a comparison so unrelated, oh, the narrative! I forgot, to suit the narrative.
No one has ever suggested using equal volumes of 4f in a shotgun. One of it's advantages is economy.
I am happy you agree on the lower muzzle pressure via your device. Thank God for that...

Nathen are you saying that if I’m using 45 grains of2f that if I switch to 3f at say 35 grains the shot wood hit harder and give roughly the same pattern .

 

[Britsmoothy]

1-3/4 ounces of shot in a 10 gauge with 100 grains of 4Fg:

Load density:​

100 %​

Pressure P-Max:​

21993 psi​

Bullet travel to P-Max:​

0.1 in.​

Muzzle velocity:​

1266 ft/sec.​

Muzzle energy:​

2726 ft-lbs.​

Muzzle pressure:​

304 psi​

Powder all burnt at:​

9.7 in.​

It would take 550 grains of 2F to reach similar peak pressure, and look at the velocity!

Load density:​

100 %​

Pressure P-Max:​

21177 psi​

Bullet travel to P-Max:​

0.7 in.​

Muzzle velocity:​

2160 ft/sec.​

Muzzle energy:​

7930 ft-lbs.​

Muzzle pressure:​

2635 psi​

Amount of powder burnt:​

99 %​

WARNING: This is a stupid load!​

So, do you think lower pellet velocity kills better, or is it something else?

So basically, isn't 4f super efficient? Run it again at 80gn or 70gn.
I use 90 gn under 2oz in my 10g for geese.
60 for other game a 1.25oz. Sometimes less shot.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Nathen are you saying that if I’m using 45 grains of2f that if I switch to 3f at say 35 grains the shot wood hit harder and give roughly the same pattern .

Walt, when I shot .58 bored smoothbores I generally use 1 ounce of shot and would use near the same volume of 3f. Somewhere around 60gns. Thin cards only.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Brit,

I can say that I am happy with conventional loads. Loads using coarser grain powder in the conventional manner.
These have always worked for me. If they didn't I would look see what I could change to make them work.
I have shot a lot of ducks, pheasants partridges and vermin with original muzzle loaders, and they have always worked fine without any unconventional loading.
I never used dry buffers. Simply card wads, (punched at home) or felt wads the same. Or ivy leaves when tinder dry at harvest time..
It seemed with the right powder, (TS2 or TS6 at that time)That I had killing patterns up to 40 yards. I never felt handicapped by no choke, but few of these old guns were bored a true cylinder. They usually had some slight friction and relief, and were well regulated in the better quality pieces.
Muzzle loaders Seem to shoot better patterns with shot maybe a size larger than we used in a breech-loader.
So if for wood pigeons I'd use no 7, try sixes in M. loader.
My 14 bore would clobber ducks as well as a breechloader, with 2 1/4 drams and 1 1/4 ounces of no 4.
That was lead shot in those days.

So my friend, your 4F May work, and yes, you are still here and not blown up! But as the old loads worked, and were used by the old gunners, some of them very dear friends of mine, I will continue in what I know, and wish you all the best with these newer ways of loading.
I will only add that slagging each other is never agreeable. and a victory in a slagging match is always rather hollow.

All the best,
Richard.

 

[IanH]

It isn't much less oressure even down to 60. Upper teens.

So basically, isn't 4f super efficient? Run it again at 80gn or 70gn.
I use 90 gn under 2oz in my 10g for geese.
60 for other game a 1.25oz. Sometimes less shot.

Yes, it really is efficient and almost makes sense pressure-wise in a 10-gauge. Almost. The smaller the bore, the higher the pressure goes.

My argument is if velocity kills and you want more iof it, lots more is available by using larger granulations....without overstressing your gun.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Brit,

I can say that I am happy with conventional loads. Loads using coarser grain powder in the conventional manner.
These have always worked for me. If they didn't I would look see what I could change to make them work.
I have shot a lot of ducks, pheasants partridges and vermin with original muzzle loaders, and they have always worked fine without any unconventional loading.
I never used dry buffers. Simply card wads, (punched at home) or felt wads the same. Or ivy leaves when tinder dry at harvest time..
It seemed with the right powder, (TS2 or TS6 at that time)That I had killing patterns up to 40 yards. I never felt handicapped by no choke, but few of these old guns were bored a true cylinder. They usually had some slight friction and relief, and were well regulated in the better quality pieces.
Muzzle loaders Seem to shoot better patterns with shot maybe a size larger than we used in a breech-loader.
So if for wood pigeons I'd use no 7, try sixes in M. loader.
My 14 bore would clobber ducks as well as a breechloader, with 2 1/4 drams and 1 1/4 ounces of no 4.
That was lead shot in those days.

So my friend, your 4F May work, and yes, you are still here and not blown up! But as the old loads worked, and were used by the old gunners, some of them very dear friends of mine, I will continue in what I know, and wish you all the best with these newer ways of loading.
I will only add that slagging each other is never agreeable. and a victory in a slagging match is always rather hollow.

All the best,
Richard.

Thank you. I agree. I use up to 2f powder.

My point has never been to cause an argument, rather to dispell the myth that is fine grades if powder will ruin patterns and blow a gun up period.
I'm happy for anyone to use what ever they are happy with but I request that unfounded assumptions made by others than yourself being made to imply they know best when clearly they don't!

 

[Britsmoothy]

My argument is if velocity kills and you want more iof it, lots more is available by using larger granulations....without overstressing your gun.

You are assuming again. How do you know I am stressing my gun? If I had over stressed my gun wouldn't it of failed?
Please stop assuming.

Ample velocity is available with less powder when you use 4f. To get like for like with courser powder you will need more and have a higher pressure at the muzzle, none of which I find desirable.

Your calculations are also for a closed breech, yes?
A closed breech will always generate significantly more pressure than a vented one.
Does you program allow for revolvers? The cylinder gap. That may be an interesting comparison!
Good day to you, or good night.

 

[Sparkitoff]

1-3/4 ounces of shot in a 10 gauge with 100 grains of 4Fg:

Load density:​

100 %​

Pressure P-Max:​

21993 psi​

Bullet travel to P-Max:​

0.1 in.​

Muzzle velocity:​

1266 ft/sec.​

Muzzle energy:​

2726 ft-lbs.​

Muzzle pressure:​

304 psi​

Powder all burnt at:​

9.7 in.​

I have chronographed a lot of loads including 10-gauge. Mostly with 3F, I admit I never used 4F. However, I have never achieved velocity greater than 1160 FPS in a 10-gauge with "max loads". It is difficult to understand how switching to 4F increases velocity by over 100 FPS. Then, looking at the pressure differences reported, wouldn't you think the Manufacturers would warn about using certain black powders?

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have an antique manual that interestingly says, "Generally, use a volume of fine powder equal to 1.24 times (x 100) the bore diameter (in grains), followed by wadding, then the same volume of shot". Notice they specifically say FINE POWDER. I wish I knew what they meant by that. Does their formula change if I use coarse powder? How fine a powder are they talking about? Or do they mean FINE, as in high-quality? In today's world, most things are taken to extreme, so 4F would be what a lot of people would use to comply with the fine powder suggestion if it were a current instruction manual. While this is a guide from one English company and over 125-years old, it makes sense. If your 20-gauge is .620 it would be 77-grains powder/shot, .629 would be 78 grains. A .730 (12-gauge) would be 90-grains. Oh yeah, of fine powder!