Advertised case hardening on BP revolvers

[morehops52]

I admit I haven't read all the replies but I think this question and the same in many products is the exact wording used. The wording of whether it is "case hardened" or "color case hardened". If the product isn't as advertised that's fraud and ,most companies don't want the headache of lawsuits so they find creative writers to come up with truful yet confusing narrative. I worked in the advertising world and am extremely critical and aware of not-quite-false advertising. Thet're not lying to you , they're just making their product sound 10 times better than it is. Please understand that I am not accusing any of the gun makers of such misrepresentation, I'm just saying you have to read ads WORD-FOR-WORD and do not assume or accept that anything is implied. BTW I love case hardening or coloring if done right.

 

[denster]

After reading several of the responses it seems like most have the idea that the carburizing agent has something to do with color. It does not. The colors are the product of the differential cooling of the quench which in most cases is airated by a slow bubbleing. The colors that are produced are the same colors we see in tempering steel just fixed at different temps.
Watch this video from Midway USA to see how it is done.

 

[LME]

The italians do not use the pack case hardening method they use molten cyanide as the carburizing agent. The colors come from the quench and for years the Italians used a rolling quench and the colors were light and streaky. In the last few years they have used a bubbled quench and are getting some pretty good work.

We had a contract with G.E. and at that time they had to quit using Cyanide? They vented out into the air. It was my under standing that it was outlawed?

 

[denster]

We had a contract with G.E. and at that time they had to quit using Cyanide? They vented out into the air. It was my under standing that it was outlawed?

No idea who G.E. stands for. In any case it is irrelevant as the carburizing agent has nothing to do with colors.

 

[LME]

No idea who G.E. stands for. In any case it is irrelevant as the carburizing agent has nothing to do with colors.

G.E. is General Electric. It is my understanding that the best case hardening is done with Cyanide? Try to buy some Cyanide?

 

[denster]

G.E. is General Electric. It is my understanding that the best case hardening is done with Cyanide? Try to buy some Cyanide?

In my post I was refering to Italian firms.

 

[Va Blackpowder Hunter]

I have a machinist manual printed in 1935 where they used ground bones to case harden metals. I can’t be certain but I would think exposing the hot metal to oxygen imparts the color.

 

[springfield art]

My understanding is that Pietta makes the revolvers for Traditions. I could be wrong.

No doubt correct. Traditions is merely a marketing company, they don't actually MAKE anything! Uberti is owned corporately by Beretta Group. Pietta actually has a factory and mfgs. firearms.

 

[springfield art]

You can imagine the OSHA requirements for using that~!

 

[GYJ]

The italians do not use the pack case hardening method they use molten cyanide as the carburizing agent. The colors come from the quench and for years the Italians used a rolling quench and the colors were light and streaky. In the last few years they have used a bubbled quench and are getting some pretty good work.

I would ask for a citation. It has always been my understanding that they are not case hardened, only colored through a chemical process.

Cyanide has a very distinct appearance and the Italian replica revolvers have never looked like that.

 

[denster]

I would ask for a citation. It has always been my understanding that they are not case hardened, only colored through a chemical process.

Cyanide has a very distinct appearance and the Italian replica revolvers have never looked like that.

View attachment 247855

There is a youtube video of a tour of the Uberti facilities that at one point shows the case hardening process. They are using molten cyanide and a rolling quench.
Once again it is not the carburizing agent that imparts the colors it doesn't matter what the source of carbon is. The colors are imparted by the quench and the type of aeration present.

 

[GYJ]

There is a youtube video of a tour of the Uberti facilities that at one point shows the case hardening process. They are using molten cyanide and a rolling quench.
Once again it is not the carburizing agent that imparts the colors it doesn't matter what the source of carbon is. The colors are imparted by the quench and the type of aeration present.

That's a chemically coloring process. Not case hardening. There's no way you could do true color case hardening on a $300 gun.

The agent and process used absolutely affects the colors and patterns. I know just by looking at the above picture that cyanide was used.

 

[64Springer]

^^^Zactly.^^^

 

[M. De Land]

There is a youtube video of a tour of the Uberti facilities that at one point shows the case hardening process. They are using molten cyanide and a rolling quench.
Once again it is not the carburizing agent that imparts the colors it doesn't matter what the source of carbon is. The colors are imparted by the quench and the type of aeration present.

That may be true of cyanide case hardening but it certainly is not true of charcoal case hardening that I actually do personally. The charcoal ratios of bone and hardwood have very much to do with the colors that turn out along with oven temp , time, quench water purity, aeration and even how far the subject part drops before interring the quench water. Also different steel types respond differently to the same identical procedures.
You can read until your blue in the face but you really begin to learn about case hardening when you drop some red hot steel into quench water and pull out the subject part for inspection.

 

[LME]

I was curious and wanted to learn about the process as I was confused.
I appreciate all the input here but it has only confused me more.
I don't know who is right nor who is wrong? LOL!

 

[denster]

That's a chemically coloring process. Not case hardening. There's no way you could do true color case hardening on a $300 gun.

The agent and process used absolutely affects the colors and patterns. I know just by looking at the above picture that cyanide was used.

The colors are yellow, brown, blue and gray. The same colors produced when steel is heated and exposed to air. Kid yourself if you want to but the only way you could tell is if someone told you.
No it is not a chemical coloring process. And yes you can. The italians are improving their colors in the last couple of years by using a different quenching method.

 

[denster]

That may be true of cyanide case hardening but it certainly is not true of charcoal case hardening that I actually do personally. The charcoal ratios of bone and hardwood have very much to do with the colors that turn out along with oven temp , time, quench water purity, aeration and even how far the subject part drops before interring the quench water. Also different steel types respond differently to the same identical procedures.
You can read until your blue in the face but you really begin to learn about case hardening when you drop some red hot steel into quench water and pull out the subject part for inspection.

I agree with several of your points however the source of carbon is immaterial to the colors produced. Other things you stated as to temperature, aeration, distance of fall yes. However the colors are produced by oxidation of the surface of the metal part. What temperature it is at when exposed to air (aeration of quench) is what produces the colors. Think differently then explain how the material used to produce the carbon going into the steel can effect the colors?

 

[64Springer]

If this site isn't careful, PETA will shut it down.

They frown on beating horses.

Especially dead ones.

 

[M. De Land]

I was curious and wanted to learn about the process as I was confused.
I appreciate all the input here but it has only confused me more.
I don't know who is right nor who is wrong? LOL!

Do a google search for Oscar Gaddy and his case hardening literature. He's passed on now but left such a great body of knowledge on this subject for posterity that it is worth procuring if really interested in this fascinating almost lost art. There is some other good literature by a Brit family of shot gun makers named Brown of four generations on how they case harden their premium side by sides.
There is also some apple sauce articles out there that are nonsense on the subject.

 

[M. De Land]

I agree with several of your points however the source of carbon is immaterial to the colors produced. Other things you stated as to temperature, aeration, distance of fall yes. However the colors are produced by oxidation of the surface of the metal part. What temperature it is at when exposed to air (aeration of quench) is what produces the colors. Think differently then explain how the material used to produce the carbon going into the steel can effect the colors?

Oscar Gaddy's literature explains very well about how the phosphates effect color and pattern and they along with the carbon come from the charcoal .