Advertised case hardening on BP revolvers

[denster]

Oscar Gaddy's literature explains very well about how the phosphates effect color and pattern and they along with the carbon come from the charcoal .

Well then try this. Pack a piece of polished mild steel in your favorite mix of carburizing agents bring it to temperature for a bit and then drop it in a quench tank of un-aerated water. What you will get is a nice gray with no trace of color.

 

[M. De Land]

Well then try this. Pack a piece of polished mild steel in your favorite mix of carburizing agents bring it to temperature for a bit and then drop it in a quench tank of un-aerated water. What you will get is a nice gray with no trace of color.

You can still get color without aeration water but the oxygen enriched water does make them more vivid. What I have found makes color go away is heating much over 1425 F although the carbon infuses deeper and case depth increases.
Some areas of the country can get away with using their own well water.
Another thing that helps more color to manifest is reusing quench water and only partially added fresh distilled.
Charcoal cannot be reused when dried out after the quench drop I have found.

 

[M. De Land]

You can still get color without aeration water but the oxygen enriched water does make them more vivid. What I have found makes color go away is heating much over 1425 F although the carbon infuses deeper and case depth increases.
Some areas of the country can get away with using their own well water.
Another thing that helps more color to manifest is reusing quench water and only partially added fresh distilled.
Charcoal cannot be reused when dried out after the quench drop I have found.

Shielding with nuts ,washers and sheet steel to hold charcoal against the subject part longer during the quench drop will also contribute to much better color and patterning.

 

[denster]

OK waste of time carrying it any further.

 

[M. De Land]

It's not a waste of time to listen to someone who has been case hardening for a long time and has a lot of learned experience to share about what actually works, why and what doesn't.
Every one starts out by reading information on a subject but the real learning comes from trial and error. We learn probably more from our failures when experimenting an figuring out what went wrong than from success that requires no investigation.

 

[64Springer]

It's not a waste of time to listen to someone who has been case hardening for a long time and has a lot of learned experience to share about what actually works, why and what doesn't.
Every one starts out by reading information on a subject but the real learning comes from trial and error. We learn probably more from our failures when experimenting an figuring out what went wrong than from success that requires no investigation.

DAMN SKIPPY.

 

[Shiloh]

Your suspicions maybe right. I looked up what it take to case harden steel and the basic process is stated as follows.

Flame or induction hardening are processes in which the surface of the steel is heated very rapidly to high temperatures (by direct application of an oxy-gas flame, or by induction heating) then cooled rapidly, generally using water; this creates a "case" of martensite on the surface.

This would be a costly additional process unless the average $50.00 U.S. cost above the basic blued revolver is a real case hardening cost in the equilalent Italian Lira money conversion exchange. I currently only have all blued revolvers so I have no way to test. I do know that real case hardening on steel is done specifically for reducing wear on a steel surface. Perhaps some other forum members reading my post can to a simply scratch test somewhere on their "case hardened" revolver and chime in with the result.

I believe even in a true case hardening the color is only on the surface. So would scratching reveal anything? The frame is only going to be so hard regardless of the gardening process.

I have a Ruger Vaquero that I brushed the color off of with a brass cleaning brush.

 

[denster]

I believe even in a true case hardening the color is only on the surface. So would scratching reveal anything? The frame is only going to be so hard regardless of the gardening process.

I have a Ruger Vaquero that I brushed the color off of with a brass cleaning brush.

Ruger advertises that the colors are faux case colors. However you are correct that true case colors are only on the surface and easily damaged by abrasion though not as fragil as the Ruger colors you mentioned.

 

[M. De Land]

I believe even in a true case hardening the color is only on the surface. So would scratching reveal anything? The frame is only going to be so hard regardless of the gardening process.

I have a Ruger Vaquero that I brushed the color off of with a brass cleaning brush.

Ultraviolet light also makes case color quickly fade so I usually coat with some sort of lubricant or finish that leaves a protective film that block UV. Actually True Oil works pretty well even though it is a wood finish.
That is another reason I like to finish the metal with glass beads as it agitates the surface to make the phosphate induced color stay on better and still leaves a satin sheen. The glass bead surface also knocks down some of the gawdyness of the bright colors by subduing them.

 

[IanH]

Simply altering the ratio of bone to wood charcoal affects the colors. There's stuff being absorbed by the metal besides carbon, so much so that the American gunmakers kept their pack recipes and methods a VERY closely guarded secret and most died with their craftsmen.

 

[M. De Land]

Simply altering the ratio of bone to wood charcoal affects the colors. There's stuff being absorbed by the metal besides carbon, so much so that the American gunmakers kept their pack recipes and methods a VERY closely guarded secret and most died with their craftsmen.

True story !

 

[GYJ]

The colors are yellow, brown, blue and gray. The same colors produced when steel is heated and exposed to air. Kid yourself if you want to but the only way you could tell is if someone told you.
No it is not a chemical coloring process. And yes you can. The italians are improving their colors in the last couple of years by using a different quenching method.

Wrong. Cyanide is very distinct. It's easy when you know what to look for.

Wrong again. Turnbull's colors are distinct and not the same as Colt or Winchester.

No, the Italians are not case hardening their frames. Hell, they were cast until a few years ago. That chemical bath in the video was not cyanide.

 

[Tenring]

I remember my uncle telling us guys when we were seventeen or eighteen that the slow rolling air bubbles were key to the colors that are produced after the dump. He would pull his cruisable out of the oven with his giant homemade tongs and slam them on the edge of the bubbling drum all half ass garage set up you know. His colors were ok but nothing like Turnbuls , I’d love to know his process.

 

[denster]

Wrong. Cyanide is very distinct. It's easy when you know what to look for.

Wrong again. Turnbull's colors are distinct and not the same as Colt or Winchester.

No, the Italians are not case hardening their frames. Hell, they were cast until a few years ago. That chemical bath in the video was not cyanide.

OK explain the differences between cyanide and charcoal of any type. You make the mistake that the carburizing agent imparts the color.
Turnbull's quenching is different and he is only doing one piece at a time not multiple at a time like Colt and Winchester.
Wrong video the one I refer to clearly states the frames are being hardened and shows multiple frames on a fixture being brought to a red heat in cyanide then quenched.
The Italians still cast their frames what does that have to do with anything?

 

[denster]

I remember my uncle telling us guys when we were seventeen or eighteen that the slow rolling air bubbles were key to the colors that are produced after the dump. He would pull his cruisable out of the oven with his giant homemade tongs and slam them on the edge of the bubbling drum all half ass garage set up you know. His colors were ok but nothing like Turnbuls , I’d love to know his process.

Your Uncle was right. And with what you describe as a half ass garage setup he got good colors. Turnbull is a pro setup. Watch the short Midway video I posted earlier Potterfield is getting Turnbull quality colors.

 

[Tenring]

Thanks for sharing the video denser they are really nice professional colors that anyone would be happy to have on there firearm..

 

[M. De Land]

After reading several of the responses it seems like most have the idea that the carburizing agent has something to do with color. It does not. The colors are the product of the differential cooling of the quench which in most cases is airated by a slow bubbleing. The colors that are produced are the same colors we see in tempering steel just fixed at different temps.
Watch this video from Midway USA to see how it is done.

That's pretty much how I do mine although he didn't show the use of any shielding as I described to hold the charcoal to the part longer in the drop. Also I use a fish tank bubbler for half an hour before the quench drop as the bubbles it produces saturate the water with more air.. I'm quite sure Turnbull is adding something else to his charcoal or quench ,perhaps he's shielding as well because he gets really vivid color and well distributed patterns.
I have read that adding bits and pieces of raw hide enhances color but do not know any ratios as I have tried a bit of it added to the charcoal and couldn't tell any change.
One thing Potter missed that I know he had to account for at reassembly but didn't show in the video is he didn't block support the middle of the action mortise which always warps to some extent even when blocked well.
That was the reason gun makers in the case hardening era used both soft fitters and after quench hard fitters in final assembly.
Case hardening AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAlways produces some small war-page no matter how much you brace block a part and you have to stone fit them at final assembly.
Another point I have asked myself is how many times can one re-case a part? Is there a limit before the steel begins to deteriorate? So far I think the only limiting factors are over heating and burning out the atomic structure of the steel (brittle Springfield and Krag actions) or cracking in the quench. The burn out will never happen at the temperatures used in bone casing but cracking in square cornered mortises in the water quench is always a concern each time and must be looked for at reassembly.

 

[M. De Land]

That's pretty much how I do mine although he didn't show the use of any shielding as I described to hold the charcoal to the part longer in the drop. Also I use a fish tank bubbler for half an hour before the quench drop as the bubbles it produces saturate the water with more air.. I'm quite sure Turnbull is adding something else to his charcoal or quench ,perhaps he's shielding as well because he gets really vivid color and well distributed patterns.
I have read that adding bits and pieces of raw hide enhances color but do not know any ratios as I have tried a bit of it added to the charcoal and couldn't tell any change.

This shielding gave me some good insight into how deep case hardening actually penetrates and if it is accumulative. I reused the same bit of mild sheet steel shielding for six different projects and quench drops. It is .040 thick and after the half dozen drops I decide to section some of it to see how far the case depth went in . I worried it until it broke off and the core of the .040 sheet steel was still malleable. The case penetration was still a skin of perhap .006-.010 estimated depth after six complete casing cycles.

 

[denster]

That's pretty much how I do mine although he didn't show the use of any shielding as I described to hold the charcoal to the part longer in the drop. Also I use a fish tank bubbler for half an hour before the quench drop as the bubbles it produces saturate the water with more air.. I'm quite sure Turnbull is adding something else to his charcoal or quench ,perhaps he's shielding as well because he gets really vivid color and well distributed patterns.
I have read that adding bits and pieces of raw hide enhances color but do not know any ratios as I have tried a bit of it added to the charcoal and couldn't tell any change.

I have never tried a shield of any sort. There is a you tube video of a gunsmith who does. Good color but heavy on the blues. I like larger bubbles than the fish tank bubblers supply as the colors are produced by the oxidation at the temp the metal is at in that spot when exposed to the air in the bubble and I like a wide spread with some of the browns and yellows. That is a matter of taste though and the tank bubbler would certainly work. Vividity of the colors is largely dependent on polish. I did at least 320grit.

 

[M. De Land]

I have never tried a shield of any sort. There is a you tube video of a gunsmith who does. Good color but heavy on the blues. I like larger bubbles than the fish tank bubblers supply as the colors are produced by the oxidation at the temp the metal is at in that spot when exposed to the air in the bubble and I like a wide spread with some of the browns and yellows. That is a matter of taste though and the tank bubbler would certainly work. Vividity of the colors is largely dependent on polish. I did at least 320grit.

I mostly agree with this post but I have used both large bubbles and the fish bubbler and have gotten better results with the fish tank bubbler as it seems to get more dissolved oxygen into the water with its tiny bubble generation which is why it is good for fish in tanks.