Ahm a Pyrodex Man....

[Charles/NM]

"Does any serious muzzleloader go beyond five shots without swabbing a bore?"
Apparently a lot of us do. I did a short test to see the difference between brushing and swabing my rifles bore and shooting without cleaning when shooting MaxiBall bullets. My rifle was more accurate when I didn't clean between shots. I didn't try the same test with patched round balls. Again, that's with my particular rifle. I shoot a 1970s vintage .50 caliber T/C Hawken that I bought new.

 

[roundball]

It's no harder to clean up your gun using BP then Pyrodex.

AMEN !!!!!!!!!

There is so much mis-leading information spewed out about muzzleloading, powders, lubes, cleaning, etc, that it's incredible...and then it's a whole 'nuther discussion whether it's intentional or out of ignorance...mostly just ignorance or the sheep-following-sheep thing...it's amazing the number of people who read things on the Internet somewhere, then go around repeating them for the next couple of years without a grain of personal knowledge or hands on experience to know first hand if it's true... :shocked2:

 

[Runner]

When I started out, everyone said that pyrodex was less corrosive, produced less fouling, was easier to clean up, was not as dangerous to handle as black, and was not set off by impact or static spark like black was supposed to be. Now, we all know this is pure hog wash pretty much, but I believed them then. I used it for 20 years because of what they were teaching then.

Along the way I learned to clean my guns and not have problems later. Now, it really would not matter if it is black, 777, or Pyrodex. I clean and protect them the same with all of them. 3f Graf's would be my choice right now if you could get it here without having to store a bunch in the house or spend major gas money and time to buy it by the can.
Pyrodex is the most corrosive of the normally used muzzleloader powders. Since it is harder to set off, it can produce some delays. It is harder to clean. I am using it because it is available here locally and I get pretty good results with it.
The feds, the states, the townships, and the insurance companies are all trying to eliminate black mostly. They have pretty much succeeded here. Pyrodex is everywhere. I will keep the Black for the flinter and use Pyrodex in the caplocks.

 

[Pittsburghunter]

It does work fine in a few of my rifles but It works so bad in some/most I just don't use it anymore. I built a Renegade in the 80's and the only thing we shot for powder back then was Pyrodex and it worked exellent in that rifle. It sucked in my Scout and I bought that to just be the first owner of the newest rifle in town. I never thought to shoot real black powder till a few years ago and it really opened my eyes.

All the sudden my sidelocks are as relieable as my new fangled inlines. My Scout started shooting good with the stuff as well.

I guess if where you live certain powders give you better performance you go with them. And yes where you live does matter.

 

[ryoung14]

My rifle was more accurate when I didn't clean between shots.

Gotta agree with that, Charles. My rifles have always delivered best accuracy when they reached a 'steady state' of fouling that allowed many/unlimited shots without swabbing. This has required backing off some from maximum loads, but not so much that performance suffers.

Swabbing always seemed to introduce more variables into the equation: How clean did you get it this time? Was it dirtier to start with this time? Was there an extra stroke in there? Did you get it dry? Does a fouling shot need to be fired before continuing? ....Ugh! Is the gun to shoot or to clean? If there's an accurate load that gets me away from all this, I'll shoot it! ...most of the time there is one with Pyrodex...or is it the bore-butter barrel seasoning that's saving my tail?

The best between shots cleaning method I've tried is cayugad's recommendation to swab out with windshield washer/isopropyl alcohol mix and then dry the bore completely. That method works. Everything else I've tried requires a 'fouling shot' or two to get the Point Of Impact back where it was.

I will say, however, that even on long runs with no cleaning and good accuracy, I normally seat using a jag with a dry patch on it. One stroke in...to seat the ball/bullet; and then back out. Very minimal, very consistent. An extra stroke or a damp patch and the POI starts moving around.

But I see I've gone O.T. on my own thread. :shake:
FWIW
Bob

 

[Bountyhunter]

I was coming back from St. Louis a couple years ago and stopped in Marshfield, MO, to visit a friend and they were closing out a Walmart store there. I bought about 20 cans of caps for like $.50 a can and I bought all the Pyrodex that they had at $2 a jug. I got like 18 pounds. I've been using it, as in New Mexico here, as Charles says, the humidity seldom gets above 10% here at Six Shooter Siding. I seldom have to swab between shots, but when I hunt in Kansas, the stuff is nasty and it will rust the barrel in a days time. I've been shooting it in my cannon to get rid if it, and am now using Goex in my Hawken. Coonies in Hobbs, NM has all the Goex that you want. I got Goex in Albuquerque the other day. Petersons on Central has it.

Bill

 

No doubt Pyrodex works. I have found it to be more corrosive thanBlack Powder and it deteriorates once exposed to air. I'll stick with Black Powder until something better comes along. I am interested in that new product from Goex called Pinnacle. I'd be interested in hearing some comments from anyone who may have tried same.

 

[Runner]

Not saying you are wrong, but who told you Pyrodex starts to break down if exposed to air? I can show you samples that have been in powder horns for years that will still shoot to the same point of aim as when the bottle was opened. If it breaks down, the chronograph hasn't noticed it.

 

[roundball]

No doubt Pyrodex works. I have found it to be more corrosive thanBlack Powder and it deteriorates once exposed to air. I'll stick with Black Powder until something better comes along. I am interested in that new product from Goex called Pinnacle. I'd be interested in hearing some comments from anyone who may have tried same.

I don't understand what that means when you say

"you've found it to be more corrosive than black powder"

What did you do to discover if/that it was more corrosive than black powder?
:shocked2:

 

I've actually read a few diferent articles that stated sso. One of them was from Sam Fadala if my memory serves me right. I get so many different publications concerning firearms it's hard to keep track of everything. But I do recall reading of Pyrodex deteriorating some after being exposed to air.

 

[Runner]

I would like to see an article with any real testing that shows that this happens. The idea is contrary to my experience with Pyrodex and I have been shooting it since about 1980. About 20 years of that time I shot nothing but Pyrodex P.

Pyrodex may not be more corrosive, but it is harder to clean out of the guns and to prevent rust when using it than when using black. Because of that, most say it is more corrosive. In tests where the same amount of black and Pyrodex were burned on plate and the plates were exposed to the weather, the Pyrodex plate will develope the most problems for a same period of time as compared to black. That just means you have to clean your guns well. I clean them the same whether I am using Pyrodex, black, 777, or anything else. It is just habit.

 

[roundball]

I clean them the same whether I am using Pyrodex, black, 777, or anything else.

That's why I asked the question...assuming the rifles are cleaned thoroughly after every use, how would anyone discover that Pyrodex was more corrosive.

I've also seen tests like you're referring to but for the life of me don't see their applicability to practical use of muzzleloaders...ie: I'm never going to leave a powder residue coated bore outside for a month with out cleaning it, etc, etc.

I also used Pyrodex RS & P for about 10 years before switching to flinters and Goex, never had any corrosion problems with Pyrodex...clean my rifles the same way regardless of what powder I use

 

In answer to your question roundball, there have been a few times while hunting that I did'nt clean my rifle as soon as I should have. No excuse but it has happened. Anyway, I found that Pyrodex caused more corrosion than did fegular black powder.

I'd also like to refer you to an article by Randy Wakeman. He's an independant researcher who writes and produces articles, videos, and reviews about muzzleoading. According to his research he has also found Pyrodex to be one of the most caustic propellents that can be found. He has also found Pyrodex to be worse than black powder insofar as corrosiveness and toxicity.

You can check his article out at[url] www.goexpowder.com[/url].

 

[Runner]

Sorry to have to tell you this, but Randy Wakeman is not an independant anything. He is a bought and paid for industry shill and has been since his first appearance. The first thing he did was to hit all the online forums asking questions and taking notes. Then he put those notes into a video for sale. At that time his big preach was no smokeless powder and no cheap guns, while telling everyuone how nice the modern TC's were. 777 was his powder of choice. Then he suddenly saw the light and started to like smokeless powder and suddenly he is the Savage shill for some reason. He will write and say anything for anyone that pays him or pays for his next hunting trip.

He is a very good debator and an even better researcher, but he would not know the truth if it bit him unless it was what he was trying to twist for his latest client. Go read his BS about BC not really existing in support of the legalization of conicals in several states for primitive hunts. Read his ideas about roundball not being suitable for hunting. In one breath he will tell you that they slow down too fast and don't maintain enough energy to be good hunting bullets, and in the next he will produce four papers proving that the effect he just said slows them down does not exist!
He is very good with words as long as you leave the ones like truth, personal honesty, honor, and such out of the mix. If you add thenm in, he is lost. And yes, I have said every word of that to him also. He is like the other industry guys. Plugging whoever is paying that day.
He actually knows a lot about the inlines, sabots, powerbelts, and powders, but you can't trust anything he says. That makes even the times he tells the truth suspect.

 

Very interesting Runner, I'm certainly not going to argue with you on this one as it appears that you know this guy personnally. But to get back to what we were originally talking about. You stated to the effect that given the same exposure Pyrodex will cause more problems than black powder. This is what I have found from my own personal experiences and that was all I was driving at. I was in no way trying to start an argument. I am normally very anal about cleaning my firearms but as I stated earlier, there were a few occasions were I did'nt get right on it and suffered the consiquences. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that between the two, I prefer Black Powder over Pyrodex.

 

[Runner]

That is a no brainer! Black is so much better that there really is no comparison unless an outside issue is involved. In my case, there are several. The first and foremost being that in this area, the federal regs, the insurance practices allowed by the state, and the city ordinances around here have run black out of town. Bass Pro and Graf's are it. They are over an hour away on an eight lane outer belt type road in off peak traffic on a good day. On a bad day, it is a four hour trip. Unless you order powder here or you belong to a club, you are pretty much up a creek when it comes to black. I don't like to keep large lots of black here, so I am using Pyrodex. In a perfect world, I would have a powder vault in the back yard with 49 pounds of Graf's in it.
On the Randy issue. I was there in the CVA forum when he introduced himself. I was there when he found HuntAmerica. I warned everyone he was collecting info from them to publish. I have watched what he has done all the way thru except for the stuff he does on his own site and on the sites dedicated to the modern stuff. He is good at what he does. You will read references to the soft Spanish barrels everywhere these days. That is a Wakeman BS story. He found an excuse to put down Tradition's and CVA to pump up his suger daddy at that time and it stuck. The fact that there is absolutely no factual basis behind anything he said except that CVA refused to answer his BS never even slowed it down. There are a whole group of people that believe everything he says. We call them Wakies or Wakemanites. If you think I was rough on him, wait until one of them that has finally woken up starts to talk about him! In my case he argued everything I hate from the very beginning, so I never believed most of his magic show. The sad thing is that he is good enough at what he does that he could have made it telling the truth if he had tried.

 

Runner, I appreciate your reply. I have no doubt that you are very knowledgeable about Muzzleoaders in general. The reason I belong to this forum is to pick the brains of guys like you. I do a lot of reading on the subject as well as experimenting as much as possible. I do make my own conclusions based on my own experimenting but I'm certainly far short of being an expert in the field of Black Powder shooting. For the six years that I've been doing it I consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable but I'll be the first to admit that I still have much to learn. That's why I enjoy chatting with guys like you. Reminds me of an old saying, "the more you know, the more you know you don't know".

 

[Runner]

I have just been online for forever. I know very little actually about the history and such. What I know is shooting the factory guns for a long time. I am building my first gun and in that part of the hobby, I am a complete beginner! I just did 90 percent of my first hand made hunter shirt yesterday. Boy, am I going to be ugly at the gathering next weekend!

 

[jimeckersley]

Does any serious muzzleloader go beyond five shots without swabbing a bore?

There isn't a yes or no answer to the question.

It depends entirely upon how much fowling accumulates between shots. The accumulation depends on a lot of factors including what kind of powder, the amount of powder, humidity, type of rifling and condition of the bore. Another factor is the lube (or dampness) being used on the patch material.

You also didn’t say what kind of shooting the “serious” person was going to be doing. Is he seriously hunting, seriously target shooting, or seriously testing different loads?

Generally speaking, fowling accumulation can be controlled by the dampness of the patch. A wet patch (spit, moose milk, etc) will eliminate the necessity for swabbing between shots because the wet patch itself keeps the fowling from accumulating. Also, generally, larger powder charges will cause more fowling than will lower charges. So, the larger charges will require a wetter patch.

If ultimate accuracy is the goal, then the routine has to be consistent. Here again, generally speaking, a sloppy wet patch won’t contribute to accuracy as well as wiping between shots with just a damp patch.

My rule of thumb for consistency and accuracy is to use a dry patch and wipe between shots with only enough dampness on the wiping patch to allow easy loading of the next shot.

 

What type of rifle are you building Runner?