Hi all,first post. Just wondering if anyone might know what smoothbore may have been common around what is now Alabama in the early 1800's? I'm tossing around the idea of buying one and kinda like the idea of having one that was one time used around here. If not Alabama,which one was used more in the South. Thanks!
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Alabama smoothbore?
- Thread starter jd411111
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NWG got traded all over America. The gulf coast could have got trade out of Mexico. French guns had been traded out of new orlines. Southern guns would have been carried by settlers out of Georgia or Tennessee. Lots of trade flowed down the Mississippi. Double barrel shotguns were the up and coming. Fighting in southern Indian campaigns would have brought a few American muskets. Any late 18th century, early 19th cent fusils could be right. Southern style smooth rifles, southern smooth poor boy fowlers and poor boy barn guns would be my first choice.
54ball
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Due to modern game laws the smoothbore is more versatile today but in the period I'm not so sure that was the case.
Some types of smoothbore (fowling guns) do very well for birds on the wing and fair to pretty good for large game with ball. Other types (smooth rifles and trade guns) do fair on birds and pretty good for large game.
A rifle toted by a good shot is excellent on large game, very good for small game and good for large birds especially in ambush but it is almost useless for smaller game birds on the wing. For two legged critters the rifle has the advantage in range and can be loaded as quickly as a hunting type smoothbore when the threat is close.
The Choctaw Trading Factor at Fort Stoddart 1805 reported the following. Smoothbore guns are nearly unsaleable to the Choctaw, they want rifles.
Early to Mid 18th Century the smooth bore trade gun was the queen of the woods. In the years immediately preceding the Revolution and the decades afterward the rifle becomes the preferred arm. Keep in mind this was the height to the close of the Deerskin Trade, a time when deer were becoming scarce and wary. For the Indians who depended on the trade for their very existence a rifle was a welcome and needed tool. For the Americans who might encounter a these rifle armed men a rifle was needed as well.
Smoothbore guns were used all through the period and that's what I primarily hunt with today but the rifle had it's place as well.
Here are some confirmed Alabama smoothbore guns.
The Carolina Gun
The French trade guns
The Northwest Gun
The Flint Double shotgun
Brown Bess Muskets
American Muskets.....1795 Springfield
later British trade guns
Tennessee/Carolina type smoothbores(buck and ball guns)
American Fowling guns
English fowling guns
French Muskets
A few Spanish Muskets
Some types of smoothbore (fowling guns) do very well for birds on the wing and fair to pretty good for large game with ball. Other types (smooth rifles and trade guns) do fair on birds and pretty good for large game.
A rifle toted by a good shot is excellent on large game, very good for small game and good for large birds especially in ambush but it is almost useless for smaller game birds on the wing. For two legged critters the rifle has the advantage in range and can be loaded as quickly as a hunting type smoothbore when the threat is close.
The Choctaw Trading Factor at Fort Stoddart 1805 reported the following. Smoothbore guns are nearly unsaleable to the Choctaw, they want rifles.
Early to Mid 18th Century the smooth bore trade gun was the queen of the woods. In the years immediately preceding the Revolution and the decades afterward the rifle becomes the preferred arm. Keep in mind this was the height to the close of the Deerskin Trade, a time when deer were becoming scarce and wary. For the Indians who depended on the trade for their very existence a rifle was a welcome and needed tool. For the Americans who might encounter a these rifle armed men a rifle was needed as well.
Smoothbore guns were used all through the period and that's what I primarily hunt with today but the rifle had it's place as well.
Here are some confirmed Alabama smoothbore guns.
The Carolina Gun
The French trade guns
The Northwest Gun
The Flint Double shotgun
Brown Bess Muskets
American Muskets.....1795 Springfield
later British trade guns
Tennessee/Carolina type smoothbores(buck and ball guns)
American Fowling guns
English fowling guns
French Muskets
A few Spanish Muskets
The majority of my hunting is squirrel and rabbit with a little deer hunting and fifty yards would probably be the max shot for that. I've considered a .40 caliber rifle which is legal for deer in Alabama. A little large for small game but I think usable. But in the long run,I think I would bring home more meat with a smoothbore. Again,thanks for the input!
Pete G
76 Cal.
Go with a 20 ga fowler. The lines and balance are way better than a clunky trade gun which were built to be cheap.
54ball
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For a Alabama smoothbore I recommend the Carolina gun. It covers a wide range of history. It was imported from England possibly as early as 1700 and maybe as late as the 1780s. More of these have shown up in recent years, some converted to percussion. So they have a wide range of use. Several relics have been found throughout Alabama, Georgia and Florida, some complete. The near complete ones have been found in river bottoms. One in Florida was still loaded with ball shot and palmetto wadding. Spanish moss wadding is documented in period.
My son has one that I borrow often. I cant say enough good about it. It has been an accurate and faithful gun. It has taken a hog at 75 yards...my son and a good buck at 25....me. It just hits what it's aimed at. We used the Creek Indian load bare ball with dried Spanish moss wadding. Talk about fun!
They are also fun guns too. Some were blue, red, spotted, plain or painted with designs. We dolled up my son's gun with the lightning from the painting "Death of Wolfe".
My son's is a Clay Smith. Mike Brooks, Jack Brooks and Ben Coogle build them as well.
While not Carolina guns it would be well worth your while to call and visit Tip Curtis in Cross Plains Tennessee. You should be able to find his info on the forum. He has a large selection with many finished or in the white. I have not had the pleasure but he comes highly highly recommended.
My son has one that I borrow often. I cant say enough good about it. It has been an accurate and faithful gun. It has taken a hog at 75 yards...my son and a good buck at 25....me. It just hits what it's aimed at. We used the Creek Indian load bare ball with dried Spanish moss wadding. Talk about fun!
They are also fun guns too. Some were blue, red, spotted, plain or painted with designs. We dolled up my son's gun with the lightning from the painting "Death of Wolfe".
My son's is a Clay Smith. Mike Brooks, Jack Brooks and Ben Coogle build them as well.
While not Carolina guns it would be well worth your while to call and visit Tip Curtis in Cross Plains Tennessee. You should be able to find his info on the forum. He has a large selection with many finished or in the white. I have not had the pleasure but he comes highly highly recommended.
Brokennock
Cannon
If it's legal for all you want to hunt, there is a NorthStar West 24 gauge trade gun listed in our classified section.
The tradition of American rifleman starts in the early post revolution times. By early 19th century the boys of Alabama might be a lot like the boys in the west for whom it was said the Canadian and the creole reached for a fusil and the American reached for a rifle.
We do have to keep in mind the precentage of American rifles that are in fact smooth rifles or rifle mounted fusils.
Alabama was in the early 19th century first growth forest. The undergrowth was less, so even in the woods you could get longer shots then you can get today.
However we have to keep in mind that few people had corrected vision. The advantage of a rifle is lost if your shooting at a brown deer shaped blob.
My left eye is 20/200 with out my glasses.( my right is 20/15 but far sighted, need bifocals to read
). I can at 50 yards keep it near or in the black with my left eye, but shoot about the same fusil or rifle with my left eye.
On another thread about Texas market hunters quotes a list of captured guns from around 1850. Many were smooth bore flintlocks. Rifles were common and preferred but I think the picture of the American frontiersman as a rifleman had some mythic qualities, I would think with a time machine we would find a lot of smoothies in the hands of frontiersman then we like to credit today.
I like smoothies and that means I can be looking at this whole thing through rosy colored glasses, after all we tend to create history in our own image.
We do have to keep in mind the precentage of American rifles that are in fact smooth rifles or rifle mounted fusils.
Alabama was in the early 19th century first growth forest. The undergrowth was less, so even in the woods you could get longer shots then you can get today.
However we have to keep in mind that few people had corrected vision. The advantage of a rifle is lost if your shooting at a brown deer shaped blob.
My left eye is 20/200 with out my glasses.( my right is 20/15 but far sighted, need bifocals to read
). I can at 50 yards keep it near or in the black with my left eye, but shoot about the same fusil or rifle with my left eye.On another thread about Texas market hunters quotes a list of captured guns from around 1850. Many were smooth bore flintlocks. Rifles were common and preferred but I think the picture of the American frontiersman as a rifleman had some mythic qualities, I would think with a time machine we would find a lot of smoothies in the hands of frontiersman then we like to credit today.
I like smoothies and that means I can be looking at this whole thing through rosy colored glasses, after all we tend to create history in our own image.
I'd get what's going to work for you best and then worry about the probability of it fitting your time frame and location second. I would not try a .40 for deer. It can work with perfect conditions but you will have to pass up some shots. Plus a .40 is going to be overkill for small game unless you make head shots. For me the .40 is a plinking or target rifle to 50 yards because of wind effects. Fine shooting caliber but a .32 is much better for small game. For me the .45 is a 75 yard, great shot opportunity deer caliber.
Back on topic, I would stay away from any musket because they are heavy. The Carolina gun is so light it is a delight to handle if built around the right barrel. Some NW trade guns are so straight stocked as to me hard to shoot. With any smootbore I would want to handle the gun or one just like it before ordering. Fit is super important if you don't have rifle sights but are going to shoot round ball.
Back on topic, I would stay away from any musket because they are heavy. The Carolina gun is so light it is a delight to handle if built around the right barrel. Some NW trade guns are so straight stocked as to me hard to shoot. With any smootbore I would want to handle the gun or one just like it before ordering. Fit is super important if you don't have rifle sights but are going to shoot round ball.
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
Thanks for bringing up the point of uncorrected vision.
I have long thought this alone was the deciding factor for many people regarding gun selection, livelihood, lifestyle, marriageability, and economic status.
Something that too-often overlooked.
Of course there is some chance that poor vision was slightly less common in times past due to a person with poor vision's reduced earning
potential, and subsequently being considered less desirable as a husband or wife, and therefore less likely to pass on the defective vision to offspring.
I am not so naive as to believe the presence of physical or mental defects always kept people from reproducing in those days any more than it does now. Just saying it may have been a factor.
I have long thought this alone was the deciding factor for many people regarding gun selection, livelihood, lifestyle, marriageability, and economic status.
Something that too-often overlooked.
Of course there is some chance that poor vision was slightly less common in times past due to a person with poor vision's reduced earning
potential, and subsequently being considered less desirable as a husband or wife, and therefore less likely to pass on the defective vision to offspring.
I am not so naive as to believe the presence of physical or mental defects always kept people from reproducing in those days any more than it does now. Just saying it may have been a factor.
CrackStock
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jd411111 said:
Before going with a "Carolina gun," study correct locks, shapes and furniture. There are some discussions out there relating to what is correct and what is currently available because it was designed when other items were not yet readily available. Asking good questions now might prevent regret later - depending upon how you see the correctness of a particular gun.
Good point. I've been down that road before. I've been a musician for years and made that mistake when I first started and bought some instruments before I really knew what I wanted. I just got into traditional muzzleloading about six months ago so every day is a school day for me. I'm enjoying the ride though!
Dear sir,
I will second & third the suggestion of a "Carolina Gun" other wise labeled as an English type"G" in the book Colonial Frontier guns by T.M. Hamilton. If you go to the Archives & History in Montgomery, AL you can see an up close reproduction gun made by Benny C.( take a camera & ruler!) & also behind the exhibit glass you can see the remnant parts of of both English & French guns dug in the area.
That is the good news......now for the bad. While these guns are the cats meow from a function & historical accuracy point of view, they are not cheap....but you get what you pay for. Another couple of names I can throw in the pot as a builders is Jack Brooks( go to his website for some good pics of his guns) & Micheal Seidelman. One thing to look for as a measuring stick when selecting a builder.....if they try to sell you a 42" barrel....I would look else where....the originals were 46"+..EXTREMELY slender & light weight!...we are talking about a gun that should weigh no more than 5 1/2 pounds!The locks on the Jack Brooks guns are not bridled internally...just like the originals......mine is faster than the bridled tumbler on my fusil fin.
These guns are usually around 60 -58 cal and a real joy to shoot.....they represent the "work horse" of the British deer skin trade
Good luck in your research,
David
I will second & third the suggestion of a "Carolina Gun" other wise labeled as an English type"G" in the book Colonial Frontier guns by T.M. Hamilton. If you go to the Archives & History in Montgomery, AL you can see an up close reproduction gun made by Benny C.( take a camera & ruler!) & also behind the exhibit glass you can see the remnant parts of of both English & French guns dug in the area.
That is the good news......now for the bad. While these guns are the cats meow from a function & historical accuracy point of view, they are not cheap....but you get what you pay for. Another couple of names I can throw in the pot as a builders is Jack Brooks( go to his website for some good pics of his guns) & Micheal Seidelman. One thing to look for as a measuring stick when selecting a builder.....if they try to sell you a 42" barrel....I would look else where....the originals were 46"+..EXTREMELY slender & light weight!...we are talking about a gun that should weigh no more than 5 1/2 pounds!The locks on the Jack Brooks guns are not bridled internally...just like the originals......mine is faster than the bridled tumbler on my fusil fin.
These guns are usually around 60 -58 cal and a real joy to shoot.....they represent the "work horse" of the British deer skin trade
Good luck in your research,
David
I'm still in the saving up stage right now but the one's I seen so far are be beyond my budget. While they seem to be exactly what I'm looking for I have to be realistic. About twelve fifty would be about the max I could spend. Oh well I have no deadline. I was hoping TVM offered something on that order but the only two smoothbores I see are their Fowler and their Fusil. However,they both look really nice. It's also my understanding you can put down a deposit and make payments while it's being built.
54ball
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jd411111,
You have been given good advice ...here's more. On the net you never know who you are talking too. Mr. Hobbs is a professor, a reenactor and a expert on Creek and Southeastern American Indian Culture.(I hope he does not mind the disclosure.)
It was Mr Hobbs and his fellow Creek Reenactors (many of whom have that ancestry) that inspired me to purchase a Carolina gun for my son. It was a woodswalk and those guys were shooting their Carolinas like rifles. Using documented 18th loads...Spanish moss wadding and bare ball, those fellow's shooting was something to see. Simply impressive.
Using those same loadings my son's little Carolina has taken a Deer at 25 yards (devastating, I had to throw the shoulder away) and most impressively, a hog at 74 yards. Also I might add out of the box, it has never missed. Loads we used....060 and .0610 bare ball and dead/dried Spanish moss wadding.
My son's gun is Clay Smith with the 42" barrel. We do 1814 so the gun represents an aged Trade Gun at least 35 years old, so it could have been shortened in it's period of use. Recently Clay Smith has started making his Bumford Guns with a 46" barrel, 24bore based on the original with the correct barrel length and bore that Mr. Hobbs mentioned.
I know that Clay Smith and Mike Brooks will work with you. These guns take time to build so you can pay down and save up to pay the balance on completion. I suggest you contact them to see, if and when you decide on a Carolina or "Bumford".
Here are a couple of other options...
North West Gun....
In 1811 Tecumseh and his Shawnee prophets traveled down from the Northwest, also many Redstick Creeks traveled to and from the Northwest during the period. So a NW Gun is a viable gun for the Redstick War period.
Northstar West offers a good one.
In the Spring of 1814 the British land and build a Fort up the Apalachicola River on Prospect Bluff in Spanish West Florida. They bring with them a detachment of Royal Marines and by some reports 10,000 muskets and guns with powder and ball to train allied American Indians for the up coming Gulf Invasion.(ends up being the New Orleans campaign of 1814-15)
These muskets would be most likely 2nd and 3rd Model Brown Besses. In letters from the Georgia frontier, British Muskets in the hands of Creek warriors is mentioned several times. In July 1814 at Fort Jackson, a Creek runner presented General Jackson a British Musket as proof of British activity in the Gulf.
Right now Dixie Gunworks has the 2nd Model Pedersoli Bess kit on sale for less than $900 bucks. it's really an in the white gun...fully assembled.
You have been given good advice ...here's more. On the net you never know who you are talking too. Mr. Hobbs is a professor, a reenactor and a expert on Creek and Southeastern American Indian Culture.(I hope he does not mind the disclosure.)
It was Mr Hobbs and his fellow Creek Reenactors (many of whom have that ancestry) that inspired me to purchase a Carolina gun for my son. It was a woodswalk and those guys were shooting their Carolinas like rifles. Using documented 18th loads...Spanish moss wadding and bare ball, those fellow's shooting was something to see. Simply impressive.
Using those same loadings my son's little Carolina has taken a Deer at 25 yards (devastating, I had to throw the shoulder away) and most impressively, a hog at 74 yards. Also I might add out of the box, it has never missed. Loads we used....060 and .0610 bare ball and dead/dried Spanish moss wadding.
My son's gun is Clay Smith with the 42" barrel. We do 1814 so the gun represents an aged Trade Gun at least 35 years old, so it could have been shortened in it's period of use. Recently Clay Smith has started making his Bumford Guns with a 46" barrel, 24bore based on the original with the correct barrel length and bore that Mr. Hobbs mentioned.
I know that Clay Smith and Mike Brooks will work with you. These guns take time to build so you can pay down and save up to pay the balance on completion. I suggest you contact them to see, if and when you decide on a Carolina or "Bumford".
Here are a couple of other options...
North West Gun....
In 1811 Tecumseh and his Shawnee prophets traveled down from the Northwest, also many Redstick Creeks traveled to and from the Northwest during the period. So a NW Gun is a viable gun for the Redstick War period.
Northstar West offers a good one.
In the Spring of 1814 the British land and build a Fort up the Apalachicola River on Prospect Bluff in Spanish West Florida. They bring with them a detachment of Royal Marines and by some reports 10,000 muskets and guns with powder and ball to train allied American Indians for the up coming Gulf Invasion.(ends up being the New Orleans campaign of 1814-15)
These muskets would be most likely 2nd and 3rd Model Brown Besses. In letters from the Georgia frontier, British Muskets in the hands of Creek warriors is mentioned several times. In July 1814 at Fort Jackson, a Creek runner presented General Jackson a British Musket as proof of British activity in the Gulf.
Right now Dixie Gunworks has the 2nd Model Pedersoli Bess kit on sale for less than $900 bucks. it's really an in the white gun...fully assembled.
54ball
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February 6,2016 is the 1814 Tennessee Militia Muster at Fort Toulouse Fort Jackson Historical Park in Wetumka Al. We will be camped on the grounds of Fort Jackson around the cabin. You are welcome to come out and see our guns first hand. Let me know if you can make it if and I'll also bring my 1810 North Carolina Mountain Rifle that's under construction.
I live north of Birmingham and there are some ranges that I use in the area. If you would like to see or shoot one of these guns first hand let me know and we may could get together after hunting season.
Just PM me.
I live north of Birmingham and there are some ranges that I use in the area. If you would like to see or shoot one of these guns first hand let me know and we may could get together after hunting season.
Just PM me.
Man,I'll have to say excellent advice. I had no idea I would get this much and in depth information. Makes me realize I have a lot to learn.
Thanks so much for the invite. I just might take you up on that. I'm about twenty miles north of Dothan so it wouldn't be too far to Wetumpka. Is period clothing required? Also,my son lives in Birmingham so we might can meet up there when it's good for you. I'll send you a PM for some more details. Thanks to all who chimed in!
Thanks so much for the invite. I just might take you up on that. I'm about twenty miles north of Dothan so it wouldn't be too far to Wetumpka. Is period clothing required? Also,my son lives in Birmingham so we might can meet up there when it's good for you. I'll send you a PM for some more details. Thanks to all who chimed in!
CrackStock
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I am building a Clay Smith English Fowler. 44 inch barrel and has very pleasing lines along with high quality components. You did not give a complete personna, so this might fit into what you have in mind.
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