Alamo guns?

[Smokey Plainsman]

I find myself, in my travels, today in San Antonio, Texas. Home of the Alamo.

I wonder, what would a typical flintlock rifle at the great 1836 battle here have been like? What caliber, barrel legth, wood, furnishments, the lock etc. etc.?

With a new custom in the future, maybe a nice gun like that was at the Alamo would be real neat to have commissioned.

Thoughts?

 

[smoothshooter]

Probably weren't too many " nice " rifles at the Alamo.
Most would have been " working " rifles with a lot of use, and as such would not have had many frills.

My money says there were probably at least as many smoothbore muskets and shotguns as anything else, not counting captured stocks.
Some evidence of what I am saying is the tremendous quantity of paper cartridges stockpiled by the defenders and found by the Mexicans after the battle. Don't remember the actual numbers, but they were well into five figures or more, if I recall.

 

[rich pierce]

Probably depends on where folks were from.

 

[coloradoclyde]

The India Pattern Brown Bess was an English musket that was standard issue among Mexican soldiers......The victors of the battle... :grin:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So far the only rifle or gun that is believed to have been at the Alamo and survives to this day is the A Long Rifle made by Dickert, which is flintlock, .58 caliber, with an almost 46" length barrel. I wonder, if it is a Dickert rifle, if it was once a .54 and was later "freshed" to become a .58 ??

Unfortunately, some reports have this rifle being a combination of parts from rifles used at the Alamo, and others have this rifle (which does have a barrel signed by Dickert) as having been restocked before finally being presented to The Alamo museum in 1947. Article with Info on Dickert Rifle


It's also known that at the Siege of San Antonio (Battle of Bexar) in 1835, that a bunch of 3rd Model Bess muskets were taken, having once belonged to the Mexican army. Although the surrendering Mexican soldiers were allowed to keep their muskets, plus ten rounds, when they retreated to Mexico, it's thought the town had some stored muskets for the Mexican garrison there, that fell into Texican hands.

LD

 

[54ball]

The Alamo Dickert could be a restock, probably is as the stock work is rather crude...... it's also very worn..
But.....
Dickert was one of the most prolific of PA makers and hands down likely the most prolific maker from 1770-1820. Dickert influeance cannot be ignored for a ealier to mid period flintlock.
Some of Dickerts Rifles or at least Rifles with Dickert barrels could be rather plain for " that class" of PA Rifles.
Many of his rifles were built more in a factory rather than a shop..... something to consider.

Re- stocks....
Gun stocking was a trade. Sometimes the line is blurred between gun stocker and gun maker. Some of these guys were quite good. My opinion is some of the most treasured original Kentuckies may be re- stocks. The better stockers could mimic the original. Honestly even the most studious of collectors and even historians..... see what they want to see.

When you have a prolific maker like Dickert who made many grades of Rifles from ornate to martial.......plus time of use......plus good stockers who stocked worn rifles.........
How can you tell what's original and what's not?

To answer your question...... Any flavor of Dickert or for that matter any period maker would be a good Alamo rifle. Original ornate........ original plain........re- stock?? All that works for 1836.

Study.......
Hundreds and hundreds of existing longrifles have been published for study.
Thousands have not!
You will see titles like...... American Longrifles of Note.
What about those of no........Note?

I have seen many No Name long rifles from the period you are interested in....1830s.....
I call these Valley rifles since the show is in the Valley of Virginia. Many indeed are Late period Va made but many are just......Eastern.

The scoop on thes no name rifles.......

Heavy long barrel of at least 42". Bore .32-..50....Lock Round tailed late English import some marked Philadelphia.... single lock bolt but sometimes 2..... thick wristed......Lancasterian in influeance..... trimmed in Brass. Some have deeper crescent butts.... most have less curve like the Golden Age.... many can be percussion.

Texas??

Alabama Tennessee and Louisiana have a strong influeance on Texas especially so for Alabama.
Did you know Alabama sent riflemen to Texas..... they wore red hunting shirts and were decimated at Goliad.
There is documentation that Bull Riflrs were used in The Texas War. The Early South was a rifle Culture at this time.
Long rifles to consider here from this region....
Cumberland Rifles.....
Thomas Simpson...... Jacob Young
Alabama Rifles...
John and Elisha Bull..... Kennedy Family
East Tennessee....
Beans plus a host of other Appalachian rifles....
Virginia.......
Laiuks.....Sheets..... Honackers....
Incidentally Lauks are linked by Family to John Phillip Beck!
PA.......
Fordneys....Angastats.....plus many many more....

Trade Rifles.....
Henry.. Derringers.... Leman.....Conestoga......

Plenty of suitable rifles for 1836.

 

[Snakebite]

If you're traveling on the road and you go thru Waco, you might want to stop at the Texas Ranger Museum, I'm not sure they still have it but there was a display of firearms from the early days in Texas. Also in Austin, there's the Bob Bullock Museum, they have an Alamo display that's pretty good.
The last time I was at the Alamo was probably 15-20 years ago and they had a rifle that they said belonged to Davy Crockett, but not too sure about that.
Hope you have a good time in our state, some good Mexican food down on the River Walk.
Chris

 

[Artificer]

Great Post! Very interesting. Thank you for posting it.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

The last time I was at the Alamo was probably 15-20 years ago and they had a rifle that they said belonged to Davy Crockett, but not too sure about that.

I was there around 2005 and saw a rifle that was supposed to have belonged to David Crockett. Best I recall it was the rifle they copied and John Wayne carried in his version of the Alamo story? I thought someone said it had belonged to Crockett, but was the rifle he traded away or left at home and took a different rifle to the Alamo?

Gus

 

[skypilot39b]

The last time I was at the Alamo was probably 15-20 years ago and they had a rifle that they said belonged to Davy Crockett, but not too sure about that.

I was there around 2005 and saw a rifle that was supposed to have belonged to David Crockett. Best I recall it was the rifle they copied and John Wayne carried in his version of the Alamo story? I thought someone said it had belonged to Crockett, but was the rifle he traded away or left at home and took a different rifle to the Alamo?

Gus

What was interesting to me is that the rifle that I saw there that was labeled as the Crockett Rifle was a caplock. I'd have thought flint, but.....

 

[Gene L]

In the Disney TV thing on Davy (sic) Crockett I remember he changed to cap lock on the way to TX. The Buddy Ebson character stayed with flint. This was maybe in 55 or so?

 

[satx78247]

It is well known that COL Crockett traded off his caplock rifle in Arkansas, on the way to Texas for a good-quality flintlock rifle, according to the curator of The Alamo Shrine.

Further, it is believed by most historians of The TX Revolution that at least HALF of long-arms in Texas were various versions of the trusty Brown Bess. Charleyville muskets of the AWI period were also commonplace in LA & TX.
(Most emigrants to pre-revolutionary Texas-Coahuila were "dirt poor", were often fleeing from the law or some other "untoward situation" & many such emigrants arrived in Texas with literally nothing more than the clothes on their back, some sort of firearm and/or blade & "riding shank's mare".)

The Bess was very popular in Texas as it was widely available in the USA/Mexico, was cheap to buy or trade for and worked with shot and/or ball as well as any other long-arm of the period generally did.

According to Captain Juan Seguin, when Gen Cos surrendered to COL Milam's troops after The Battle of Bejar, several hundred Brown Bess muskets, many containers of (REALLY POOR QUALITY) black powder and several hundred pounds of musket balls were also surrendered to the TX forces.
CPT Seguin later stated that the Alamo defenders had 5-10 Bess muskets each, which were loaded & ready to fire, as well as their personally owned weapons.

After the Battle of the Alamo & Goliad, MOST of the firearms in the hands of new TX militiamen were "surrendered" Brown Bess muskets from The Battle of Bejar, so the number surrendered must have been quite large. Also, given that Mexican soldiers often "fell by the wayside", were killed from ambush by Apache/Tsalagi warriors or deserted the Mexican Army, a sizeable number of muskets were gathered up for "reissue" to the TX militia.
(Many new emigrants, who rushed to join GEN Houston's fledgling army, arrived afoot, with NO firearm & often not even a knife.)

As a result of the varied methods of arming the TX Provisional Army, by the day of San Jacinto ALL of the Texans were reportedly armed with some sort of "suitable" longarm, powder & shot.
It is my GUESS that MOST of those "suitable" longarms were Brown Bess muskets, of varied types.)

yours, satx

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Are 3rd model Bess remakes fo be found?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Yes, they are available from companies such as Loyalist Arms.

Brown Bess, East India - Third Model

These are among the better quality India made muskets. I use a Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern Bess.

 

[satx78247]

Frankly, I don't know that answer, as most period TX accounts simply mention "Brown Bess", "English musket", "Mexican Escopeta" or even "Good ole Bess".

The records of one of the several musket repair shops (These shops repaired, recycled & converted flintlocks to percussion as well as repairing & selling other sorts of firearms, from about 1820 until well after TWBTS.) in Captain Shreve's Port (now: Shreveport LA) still exist & are available for scholars to read at Centenary College's library in Shreveport. - SOME, though far from all, repair records of Brown Bess muskets identify the sort of musket that was repaired/converted.

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

To All,

To tell you how poor/ill-clothed that some Texican volunteers for GEN Houston's Provisional Army, one East Texas (from a small farm near today's town of Athens) man named Jacob Simms arrived in the camp exhausted, hungry, barefooted & wearing what a private letter "home" (the letter from Thomas Platt is archived at TAMU) called "the poorest of rags", bare-headed, barefooted & "armed with a broken draw-knife & a spear made from a length of river cane".
Mr. Simms had walked from his farm (near today's Athens) as he said that he wanted to fight "Ole Santie Annie" (sic).- The Platt letter to his wife said that, "before Sunset" that the good Mr. Simms was given a pair of "moccasins, a hat, shirt & trousers to fully cover himself, as a Christian should be" & was also issued a musket.
The letter doesn't say but I would presume that he also was issued a bowl/spoon for eating, a blanket or quilt, powder, shot and/or musket balls and some sort of horn/container to carry his supplies in.

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

In another case, a Texas "regular" arrived in GEN Houston's camp, riding a Mexican cavalry horse with saddle & tack, carrying a musket/bayonet & other items of Mexican Army issue.

Titus Walken reported that he was an escapee from La Bahia (Goliad), had come upon a resting soldier, killed the soldier by striking him in the head with a rock, took the soldier's mount/gear & thereafter followed the TX Army to the East, until he found the Texan forces.

yours, satx

 

[Col. Batguano]

In the Disney TV thing on Davy (sic) Crockett I remember he changed to cap lock on the way to TX. The Buddy Ebson character stayed with flint. This was maybe in 55 or so?

Buddy Ebson changed to percussion when he was getting ready for his move to Beverly Hills in `62 though. Weeeel doggy!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

So the quality is good? Seems very cheap at $650 or so.

 

[Grenadier1758]

My Long Land Pattern Brown Bess and the other Loyalist Arms have proven to be of acceptable to hold quality. We use our for the Woods Walk at Fort de Chartres. This is a live fire Woods Walk and we shoot 15 to 20 rounds at targets. Accuracy isn't necessarily cloverleaf at 60 yards, but we did cut a 4x4 in two and finished in the top third. Performance is good for a smooth bore.

There are other India sourced guns that I will not recommend. I know that Loyalist Dave and I both use long land pattern muskets from Loyalist Arms.

One note, maybe two: The stock will be heavy due to the use of denser wood than walnut and the barrel will be heavier than an original. The trigger may need honing and you will likely be tuning the lock to take the rough edges off.