American Pioneer Powder & Flintlocks

[strato50]

Hey all! This is my first post here, after reading a few threads it seems to be the right place to be posting :grin:

Ive read plenty of reviews of the APP / Clean Burn / Pinnacle type black powder substitutes, from excellent to outright awful, but I'd estimate more than half giving the opinion that a flinter simply won't fire accurately with this powder.

I bought a pound about 2 weeks ago (33% cheaper than Goex regular black powder)... and in about 15 shots, all with lead ball & paper cartridge, I haven't had a single misfire or failure to ignite. This stuff goes off with a bang.

Notable characteristics that may be giving me a better (perfect) rate of fire... I'm using FFFg; most reviews describe the grain size as 'very large' compared to BP. I'm firing a Bess, with its massive lock & touchhole probably helping me out. Also, most importantly I'm using Goex FFFFg for primer, and I think that is the key.

Anyway truth be told MOST of the reviews I've read over were a couple to several (5+) years old, perhaps they've refined it to a better quality since then.

As long as I'm shooting for fun & blanks for noise, I'll be sticking with this powder. It makes a heck of a boom & wrecked and old crock pot with consistent off-hand shots.

A+ from me, what experiences do you guys have with this?

Thanks
-Jordan

 

[Don Mackay]

Hello Jordan,

I was very interested to read your post, as I am trying to get some Triple 7 BP Substitute for my Lyman Great Plains caplock in .45" Cal.

After reading it was clean burning, easy to clean up and capable of enabling many shots to be fired without swabbing between shots etc, I was impressed!

Then I read articles stating that a hard to remove crud ring quickly forms in the breech area which causes difficulties when trying to seat a patched ball fully home!Confusion!

As the GPR has the reduced diameter patent breeching, which is already slightly difficult to clean, I wonder if this would present additional problems?

However your Brown Bess, being a flintlock, which most folks state will not work with BP substitutes
causes even more confusion!

Perhaps I will just stay with the old original, rotten eggs smell and all.

Any further views you may have, I would love to hear.

Best regards,

Don.

 

[Ordnancebob]

I have not tried APP in my rock locks. However I use it for my Cowboy loads in .44wcf.
I have loaded Triple 7 as well when I want to feel a full powered load in .44 wcf.
I may try some Blackhorn 209 in my future Win 76.
Subs allow the use of bullets with conventional lube. Also more shots per pound. However for 12 gauge Cowboy loads still get 65gr of Goex 2f. Love the smell of sulfur and the flame which is missing with the subs.
APP also sees use in my .577 Snider. No lube required.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

Curious as to what was used to clean-up afterwards? One of the reasons I like using BP is easy clean-up with water and of course the puff of smoke and smell after each shot. It is nice to hear how you have not had a misfire, but have you compared ignition time between BP and the substitute... as a longer ignition time could very well open up your groups?Also, since you are using 4F as a prime... I would make sure that if you are using a cleaning solvent it also cleans the BP residue in the pan and patent breech area's! :v

 

[Dean2]

Interesting post since common comment on here is the NO subs work well in a flintlock. I tried APP 3F in my percussion Deerstalker in 50 caliber. I found it clean burning, consistent and very easy to clean up at the end of the day. I fired over 50 shots and never swabbed the barrel. I did find that volume to volume the velocity was lower with APP than 3F black.

My flinter is a 32 and I have not tried it in that because as you said, the grain size i quite a bit bigger than standard 3F. I however see no reason why it would not work well set up the way you are shooting it in a 50 caliber or greater flint lock.

Interesting to see if anyone else has done like you and what there results were.

 

[nkbj]

Years back with APP, musket would consistently foul out and not go bang on third shot. No doubt that's due to internal geometry not being good with that product.

 

[strato50]

Don, I haven't tried triple 7 myself but you seem to have read everything I've read. The general sense is that it definitely has more muzzle energy and 'kick' than the other substitutes, so many hunters prefer it's use.

Cleanup was with a cup of warm water sloshed around the barrel twice, and 3 patches to dry it out. The third patch came out nearly perfectly white and dry, the stuff basically falls out of the barrel.

Kodiak, there is a BIG puff of smoke, you don't lose that compared to shooting BP, and the cleanup is MUCH easier and less messy, they aren't kidding when they advertise clean burn. You only lose the sulfur smell

No lube required infact it's not recommended, even bore butter tends to gum up inside the barrel (I noticed because I used it to lube the inside after cleaning)

I fired 15 shots in a row with just paper cartridge, no noticeable change in loading or firing at all, the barrel looked the same after 1 shot as after 15 shots!

I'll see about posting a quick video of firing an APP load, stay tuned.

 

[mike3132]

I like APP in modern muzzleloaders because of the ease of cleaning and almost no fouling but when I ran it across my timer I found 400 fps variances for the same load, way too inconsistent for me. 2F was worse than 3F. If APP would ever get that problem solved I would be using it.

In my side hammer guns BP is all I use. Mike

 

[strato50]

Woohoo successfully edited down a video for you all.

I hope you can forgive our lack of proper facilities but we were perfectly safe & about 5km from the nearest sign of humanity.

This is I think the 8th shot we took that day hand loading APP (about 90 grains) and a .71 lead ball with cotton wads.

Video

 

[Billnpatti]

There appears to be a rather noticeable lag between the pan going off and the main charge going off. What amazes me is that the stuff works at all. I do not know the composition of APP but all of the other substitutes have a significantly higher ignition temperature and this renders them essentially useless in a flintlock. If APP works reliably in a flintlock, it sure will be a boon to those who have no access to real black powder.

 

[strato50]

I didn't notice a significant difference between shooting regular BP and the APP in my bess, but yes I'll agree generally there is a bit of a delay. I've seen a few instances where it's more of a "click...Fzz... BOOM!" with Pyrodex, where this is the more proverbial 'ka-BOOM' you expect from a Bess.

Just from info I've READ, I wouldn't shoot Pyrodex or even Triple 7 out of this, the advantages don't outweigh the cons for me, mainly being incredibly easy to clean and almost zero fouling.

 

[ohio ramrod]

The only people I know who have been able to use the substitutes in their rock locks have large (5/64 ) flash holes and use a large amount of FFFF black in the prime pan. My self I only use black, due to the fact that the first formulation of pyrodex was extremely corrosive and I have always had a good supply of the real black powder. :hmm: :hmm:

 

[Landngroove]

Having used APP in the past, you will find that when you use it fresh, right out of the new can, and when you use the same can a month later, it will not perform the same. I found that as APP ages, it loses power, and accuracy changes. If you are hunting with APP, even new fresh powder, and you leave the load in your rifle (tagged, of course) overnight, it will not shoot with the same accuracy, as a load with fresh powder. The stuff attracts moisture in the air. Even with a tightly closed lid, you will find clumping in the can, after the seal has been broken, if stored for a while. This is why I no longer use this powder. Try this: In your rifle shoot a PRB with 80 grains of FFG Goex. Pay attention to the felt recoil. Now use the same rifle, and PRB, but use 80 grains FFG of APP that is from an opened can, say for few weeks. Bet you will feel the difference.

 

[strato50]

I'll try to make note of any performance changes over time, although I can't make any kind of scientific observation as I'm shooting recreational without a crono or set target distances.

I did just test APP in my pan, and it definitely is not reliable in the lock, as myself and most other folks have mentioned. I'll stick with my primer flask of 4fg for that.

Thank you guys for your input.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Well just maybe American Pioneer fixed some of the problems they have had in the past. I have never liked it compared to Triple Seven there is no comparison, triple seven is just better. The 2F american pioneer I currently have looks like kitty litter and won't go through my flask. American Pioneer 3F didn't have this problem as it was finer. However the 2F sucks and not sure if it is worth shooting up plinking?? Good thing is I got if free from another guy who didn't like it either.

 

[strato50]

Hey guys, an update. A month and a few days after first trying out APP in my Bess my first flint rifle showed up in the mail, a 50cal Traditions Kentucky.

After setting up my rock & lock, I set off a small load of 35 grains or so of 3F APP with just a 1/2 cotton ball ontop to compress the powder. 4F Goex in the pan, as I usually do. Instant boom.

Next load, 75 grains of 3F APP (what I'll be using as a normal load), 320 grain REAL bullet on top. Must bigger boom, instant ignition.

This is the same initial batch of APP I bought earlier in the summer, pouring through my brass spring-valve flask. So far so good...

Joining the local shooting club ASAP, so I'll eventually have target shooting reports :grin:

 

[BrownBear]

Thanks for the follow-up. Good to hear.

Keep them coming! :hatsoff:

 

[Rat Trapper]

Glad to hear you are having good luck. The American Pioneer powder that I have is like kitty litter. It is so coarse it won't go through my flask. Sounds like they fixed that problem?

 

[AZbpBurner]

I bought a can of APP last summer to try in a particular cap & ball revolver. Ignition was OK, but discharge seemed erratic. They recommend keeping APP away from grease and lubes, which may account for the erratic performance I got. For equivalent volume, it felt like it lacked power compared to BP or Pyrodex.

As I recall, there's a desiccant pack inside the APP canister, which is a good clue that the powder is hygroscopic & best not stored in anything without tight seal or left loaded for any significant time.

IMO, it isn't worth squat in a cap and ball revolver, but I haven't tried it in any of my rifles yet, so that may well be another matter altogether.

Maybe next trip out with the GPR flint, I'll try some.

 

[strato50]

Im using the 3F in both my Bess & Kentucky, flows just fine through my brass gated flask.