Another E.Va Born at TVM

[tg]

". I like the lines but what exactly is "early Virginia" about it? Can anyone point out the appropriate details to me?"

very good point I have yet to see anything from several builders that connects the EV guns to EV except Chambers and some who mak a gun similat to the Kettland gun, most that are shown would be dated to the early Rev war period at the earliest nice guns but not really as "early" as suggested many lacking the very typical moulding lines along the forestock stock and buttstock, some have straight barrels and often have inlets that are typical of later guns it has become a generic term to suggest a gun for the F&I war period but most do not reflect that early of a gun, look to the Chambers gun for about the best pattern to go by if going for a true EV style.Just being called something by a builder does not make it so.Again these are nice guns but not represented as well as could be historical/chronologicaly, if I am wrong please explain my errors.

 

[chance]

She is a beauty!!!

 

[Tony Logan]

very nice, what's not to love about that gun.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Can anyone point out the appropriate details to me?

I seriously doubt it....

 

[xbowman]

Super looking rifle....GOOD LUCK WITH IT!!

 

[redwing]

TG and Brooks don't know what an Early Virginia Rifle looks like. :hmm: Damn I was glad to read that. I always wanted to know the answer to that question my self. I was afraid to Ask :redface: It seemed everyone but me knew what a Virginia Rifle looks like. It is great to find out that I am not a total idiot. I have one that J. Garner made years ago. I often look at an say, Just what the Hell are you any way?? :shake:

 

[nchawkeye]

Well, I'll be the first fool to give my opinion...

Take an early Lancaster stock, do a little modification and you have an early Carolina or Early Virginia rifle...

In either case, you could put an English round face lock on it, still go with an Daisy patchbox or sliding wood and leave the trigger guard and butt plate alone...

Both would have less raised carving than a Lancaster at the time as money was tight on the frontier...

Many of the gunsmiths from that time migrated down here from PA, so that influence was pretty heavy in a pre 1770 rifle...

 

[Number19]

I'll be the second fool to weigh in on this - it depends on your definition of "Early Virgina".

I'm new to this, but what I've gathered from my reading is that there are three general periods for classifying flintlocks: 1)the golden age; 2)the colonial period; and that brief time in between, which might be called the revolutionary war period.

Now me personally, I've considered anything earlier than the golden age to be an EV. But I gather that many here only consider the colonial period to be "early", and more specifically, dating around the French and Indian War - probably because of the popularity of re-enactment.

Rifles by Johanes Faber, H. Deming, F. Klette, and several unidentified are presented in Rifles of Colonial America vol II and identified as probably Virginia rifles.

The butt plate and trigger guards are the easiest identifiable characteristic to my untrained eye. The moulding lines that TG pointed out; but there is also a very identifiable beaver tail carving pattern on top of the wrist which appears to be a distinctively Virginia trait.

IMO, it is best perhaps to just reference these rifles of modern manufacture as being "Virginia" rifles.

 

[Bob J]

I agree that the sunburst adds some "kick" to an already beautiful rifle. Good shootin, too! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[dave_person]

Thanks Hawkeye and 19,
I appreciate the info. My question was, however, what about the TVM early Virginia rifle characterizes it as an EVA. To me it looks like what many used to refer to as a "fantasy" transitional long rifle. It looks completely German in styling without even a faint hint of any English influence. I like the lines of the gun but I am curious about the pedigree and what makes it an EVA rather than just somebody's idea of what an early long rifle might look like.

dave

 

[roundball]

GENERAL COMMENT ON THE THREAD...

Another point that some may be overlooking here is that a seller is in busiess to make a variety of muzzleloaders and has to differentiate between them as best they can.

TVM makes no claims or advertisements that any model is some precise copy / replica of a given named model / time frame. My understanding is that TVM set up names for them based on a large degree of adherence to something associated with their past / time frame.

Just as a couple simple examples, the models called Early Virginia / Early Lancaster have wide butt plates, a certain amount of drop at heel, etc. By contrast, the Late Lancsters have more narrow butt plates and less drop at the heel.
And I believe every independent builder does the same thing...don't know of any builder who completely builds a precisely HC long rifle.

So one simple solution to the question would be to pick up the phone and discuss it with TVM's owner, Matt Avance...but as simple as dialing numbers on a phone is that never seems to happen...and the issue keeps being tossed out here periodically, over and over.....surely, it's not just pot stirring.

Said a different way, its kind of like Chevrolet names one of its models "Impala" and Ford names one "Cougar"...neither are an Impala or a Cougar...and could be debated until the end of time...but the obvious and common sense way to end the debate, to find out why they call them that is to simply ask Chevrolet and Ford.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Roundball,
Thanks. That answers the question for me and I didn't even have to make a phone call to TVM on a weekend.

dave

 

[Deadeye]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Deadeye

 

[Mike Brooks]

Must be something like trying to figure out what the definition of "is" is.... :wink:

 

[dave_person]

Hi Mike,
I should have listened to you a long time ago.

dave

 

[Mike Brooks]

I find it interesting when comparing antique virginia rifles from different schools they all vary in appearance, just like the diffent schools of Penn. rifles do. In fact Va. rifles vary so much in some cases they don't resemble any of their neihboring schools.
I have difficulty with the word "early". What is "early" when applied to a virginia built rifle? For me I'd say pre 1765 or so. Differnt areas were settled at differnt times. What may be early in one area may be late in another.... :idunno:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Mike,
I should have listened to you a long time ago.

dave

:haha:
That would be a first, most people here ignore me completely. :grin:
Nobody ever wants to hear that the emporer actually has no clothes. :haha:

 

[tg]

"So one simple solution to the question would be to pick up the phone and discuss it with TVM's owner, Matt Avance...'

you do not really have to make a call when looking at all the originals in the books pretty much tells the story, when no traits specific to the virginia guns are apparent save may be a single trigger guard which is hardly enough to define a gun and not sorting out one builder here this is evident with most offering the EV, the opinions of at least half a dozen or more very well researched gun historians will back this up, they can use the same basic plan for several early guns by just tweaking a bit here and there with nothing historical behind it.Carvings and engravings are often the only clues to place a gun and most EVs lack any of these, but those who choses not to do any research and blindly follow the lead of a builder will continue to defend the nomenclatute inspite of the lack of anything to support it, which is fine as these folks are not into the history end of things anyway.If one of these guns was shown to a nonbiased gun historian such as Schumway or Lanning they would not have a clue where in might be represented as comming from.They are fine quality guns but much missreprented as to time and place.

 

[dave_person]

Hi TG and other folks,
Thanks for the post but I am not trying to start a debate on TVM's EVA rifle. I have a friend who would like me to build him a Virginia-style gun. I am trying to learn what that means. Some of you have been helpful with that. I saw the TVM rifle and liked the lines and thought I might show it to my friend to see if it appeals to him. However, before doing that, I wanted to understand what about the gun says "early Virginia". He can decide how historically correct he wants me to be but I wanted to point out to him the points that might identify the style as EVA. As Roundball answered, the name is applied more or less for marketing purposes. It is just a nice earlyish style rifle. That may suit my friend or it may not. In the latter case I fall back on my other more historically correct sources.

Thanks again everyone,

dave

 

[Number19]

"...what about the TVM early Virginia rifle characterizes it as an EVA...It looks completely German in styling without even a faint hint of any English influence. I like the lines of the gun but I am curious about the pedigree and what makes it an EVA rather than just somebody's idea of what an early long rifle might look like."

Matt's EVA closely resembles a rifle known as the Bogle Rifle, which was probably built during the Revolutionary War period, probably the late 1780's. Matt's butt plate doesn't have as much curvature and the side plate is totally different. I think the Bogle rifle may be a little more angular in the butt stock.

You might Goggle and take a look at this rifle.