Another Hawken Question

[C.J.]

I am considering purchasing in the future a Hawken style rifle. I want to get one that looks as historically correct as possible. I traded a hundgun a few years back for a Traditions .50 flintlock Penn rifle. Walnut stock on that rifle got messed up and I now have the 42" barrel and lock (which I had replaced)and all the rest. I spoke with TOW about having that barrel cut down to about 33 or 34" and using it to have a Hawken built. I would also want this Hawken to have a percussion lock as I already have a couple of Flint locks. They said that it could be done but stated that it would still be a spanish barrel. I am assuming that they are not as good of quality as others. In your opinion would I be wasting my time going this route or should I look at maybe purchasing a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain or something like that. I have a couple of TC Hawkens one 50 and the 45 that I have listed forsale. They are nice rifles but just do not seem historically correct to me. I would sure appreciate your input into this. Thanks.

 

[David W.]

I am considering purchasing in the future a Hawken style rifle. I want to get one that looks as historically correct as possible. I traded a hundgun a few years back for a Traditions .50 flintlock Penn rifle. Walnut stock on that rifle got messed up and I now have the 42" barrel and lock (which I had replaced)and all the rest. I spoke with TOW about having that barrel cut down to about 33 or 34" and using it to have a Hawken built. I would also want this Hawken to have a percussion lock as I already have a couple of Flint locks. They said that it could be done but stated that it would still be a spanish barrel. I am assuming that they are not as good of quality as others. In your opinion would I be wasting my time going this route or should I look at maybe purchasing a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain or something like that. I have a couple of TC Hawkens one 50 and the 45 that I have listed forsale. They are nice rifles but just do not seem historically correct to me. I would sure appreciate your input into this. Thanks.

you can still get a true copy of a Hawken: https://www.thehawkenshop.com/

 

[mooman76]

It's still worth fixing but I wouldn't put allot of money in it. Spanish barrels while not being the best were still good and usually accurate. Is the stock repairable? Maybe buy a replacement stock.

 

[mikeinaz]

Depending how much you want to spend or how much work you want to do, take a look at the Lyman Great Plains rifle in kit form, or finished. This rifle is a close copy of a Hawken and shoots well. Pedersoli Hawken is expensive and you have to examine the barrel closely for defects. They are beautiful and really well put together. YOW and Pecatonica River make nice kits also. Good luck.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, Spanish barrels aren't bad but, your barrel would need to be rebreached to get a breechplug that even remotely resembles a true Hawken breech.

That would require cutting off the rear of the barrel and machining new threads in it.

Your existing lock (assuming it is percussion) would not be similar to the locks used on a true Hawken.

The existing untapered barrel also isn't like the originals which had a slight taper to them.

I mention all of this stuff because you said,
"I want to get one that looks as historically correct as possible.".

Something else to keep in mind is, unless you plan on doing all of the work on building this rifle, just the labor is going to cost at least a grand and you will still end up with a "modified Spanish gun".

As was mentioned, the Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is a fair representation of a Hawken rifle.
At 9+ pounds it is a bit heavy but even at that weight it is still 2-4 pounds lighter than a real Hawken.

 

[BrownBear]

As was mentioned, the Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is a fair representation of a Hawken rifle.
At 9+ pounds it is a bit heavy but even at that weight it is still 2-4 pounds lighter than a real Hawken.

Great advice. You'll find the factory GPR's stocks a little beefy in most areas, giving you plenty of room to slim them and improve the lines to look more like a real Hawken. Lots more "spare" wood to work with in a kit.

Along the way you'll lighten the GPR a little, even altering the balance slightly, which I like.

In comparison I have a 58 caliber Hawken from the old Green River Rifle Works, which goes a long ways toward matching the details of an original Hawken. The barrel is 36" and tapered from 1 1/8" at the breech to 1" at the muzzle, while the stock is surprisingly trim and sleek. It balances beautifully for carry in the hand and for offhand shooting, but tips the scale at a whopping 12+ pounds.

Much as I love it and enjoy shooting it, we sold our last horses a couple of decades back, and I can't see making long hunts with the Hawken without a horse under it. In contrast the trimmed down and reconfigured GPR is equally pleasing in the hand and on the shoulder and gets to go on lots of long hunts.

I'm sure that GRRW Hawken gets to feeling all lonely and hurt being left behind on my big walks, but it still looks and shoots faithfully when I get back home with the GPR. :thumbsup:

 

[LaBonte]

Zonie Said:
As was mentioned, the Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is a fair representation of a Hawken rifle.
At 9+ pounds it is a bit heavy but even at that weight it is still 2-4 pounds lighter than a real Hawken.

Actually that's one of those "factoids" that is not necessarily correct - earlier J. & S. Hawkens tend to be in the 9-10 pound range such as the fancy silver mounted halfstock made in 1836 which has a 37" swamped barrel and weighs 9.25 lbs (and the silver mounts actually increase the weight over iron ones due to density), while the later ones made made by Sam and those that followed such as Gemmer were generally in the 10.5 to 12 pound range. There are of course exceptions on both ends of the spectrum, but in general the earlier rifles did not use as heavy barrels as the later ones.
Plus it was not just Hawkens that weighed in that category and those weights changed as well over time - an 1825 order from the AMFCo to Henry of Boulton requested that the rifles be between 9-10 pounds, whereas an later 1830's order requested the rifles be 10-11 pounds. The weight difference was almost always due to the heavier barrels, but wood density is also a factor for weight.

As to the best repros of the original Hawkens outside of a full custom build, IMO the best is one of Don Stith's kits if you have the skills of no of some one who does, I have no real experience with the big company guns as currently offered so can't offer much of an opinion.

PS while the majority of existing Hawken rifles have tapered barrels (most of the existing rifles are the later halfstocks) there are examples with both straight and swamped barrels - about 10% of them have these.

 

[galamb]

For an "off the shelf" rifle "currently available" in finished form, the Rocky Mountain Hawken from Pedersoli is certainly a passable representation of an original Hawken - they did a good job.

As was posted, the Hawken shop puts together a fair "kit" (term used loosely - mostly a partly shaped chunk of wood and a box of parts) and even Track of the Wolf has "reasonably representative" kits in their Bridger and Carson Hawken offerings.

Don Stith (St. Louis rifles) may just have "the" most accurate Hawken (kits) available today.

Of course, all these "kits" need to be built - they are not a simple assembly thing - budget 100 hours of your time and don't be surprised if it hits 200 hours.

If you simply plan on a rifle with a straight barrel, as Zonie suggests, you could have the breech "recut" (Track among others provide this service for 30 or 35 bucks) so that a "proper" breech could be fitted.

I would have no issue re-purposing a Spanish barrel - they are fine/safe/shoot well, but if you are going for "more correct" a tapered barrel from one of the barrel makers would certainly be a better choice.

 

[Zonie]

There are exceptions to everything but I'll stick with the idea that Hawken rifles were, on average in the 11 pound and up weight range.

To me, that can become a real load to carry if there is any distance, hills or mountain trails ahead.

 

[BrownBear]

To me, that can become a real load to carry if there is any distance, hills or mountain trails ahead.

It's a fact. If there's not a horse in your life, you won't be making many real long walks in tough country. In fact, the first one you try is likely to send you back to the drawing board for a rifle that weighs a whole lot less.

 

[Alden]

But, I learned here there is only one type of Hawken and they're all the same, "not like a T/C," right?

:rotf:

Anyway, get a Pedersoli and, um, ever so carefully check the barrel...

:shake:

...then take it home or keep it and enjoy!

 

[galamb]

There are exceptions to everything but I'll stick with the idea that Hawken rifles were, on average in the 11 pound and up weight range.

To me, that can become a real load to carry if there is any distance, hills or mountain trails ahead.

I would suggest that your assumption is probably a "good average" weight for a Hawken.

I have specs on quite a number of originals. If you remove all the "local rifles" (built by Sam in calibers sub-45, single barrel key etc - sometimes called "squirrel" rifles) you do get some significant variation, but here is a few examples:

(all these are just specs I have and should not be considered "cast in stone")

Lightest rifle - 8 lbs 6 oz - S. Hawken, half-stock 50 cal, 32.5" barrel, 48" LOA

Heaviest rifle(s) - 15 lbs 0 oz (two rifles) - J&S, full-stock, 58 cal, 44 3/4" barrel, LOA (?) - J&S, full-stock, 50 cal, 42 5/8" barrel, LOA (?), owned by Francis Parkman.

A few other stats for rifles 50, 52, 53, 54, 56, 58, 59 and 60 cal (all which existed in those calibers "as built")

1 rifle between 8 and 9 pounds (noted as the lightest)
3 rifles between 9 and 10 pounds
5 rifles between 10 and 11 pounds
3 rifles between 11 and 12 pounds
4 rifles between 12 and 13 pounds
2 rifles greater than 14 pounds (noted as the heaviest)

Now maybe all the lighter rifles didn't survive, or just maybe 3/4's of all Hawken rifles weighed somewhat over 10 pounds.

Even the Carson Hawken, a popular builders choice since a couple of kit's are available was not a "light" rifle.

Despite having a relatively short (for a Hawken) barrel at just barely 31" long, being tapered from (close to) 1 1/8" to 1" (1.129" to 1.089" actual) and a half-stock, it still "weighed in" at 10 lbs 8 oz (10 1/2 pounds).

I carried "my" 10 1/2 pound Carson creation for a couple months then sold it and went with an 8 pound Ohio (ya, I'm a whimp - but without a cramped shoulder/arm from carrying a Howitzer up/down hill in dense woods).

 

[F.G. Ford]

What is the problem with a Pedersoli barrel?? :idunno:
Has there been problems?
Fred

 

[mikeinaz]

I returned two of the Pedersoli Hawkens to Cabela's after realizing that there was chatter marks in both of the barrels left by the broaching tool. The rifling was permanently screwed up so I returned them and Cabela's agreed. Both were absolutely beautiful guns with lots of hand work. I have several Pedersolis that I swear by, so it was disappointing to see these flawed guns leave the factory. Other folks have had no problems.

 

[daniel collums]

Only thing i dont like about mine is the weight.

 

[C.J.]

I am aware of the weight issue. My TC. 50 is heavier than either one of my flint lock longrifles. I looked at a new Pedersoli at Cabelas and was impressed with the craftmanship. I'll need to go back with a bore light and check it out. Those that have the Pedersoli how do you like the way it shoots? Meaning is it fairly consistant?

 

[rickystl]

It seems the older I get, the more sensitive I become to gun weight. :haha:
With this in mind, I had my Hawken built using a 1" straight octagon X 36" in .58 caliber. If I recall, it was a full pound lighter than a 1 1/8" tapered X 36" in .54 caliber.
She ended up weighing 9-lbs. on the nose. But the balance is so good it feels more like an 8-lb. gun when you shoulder it. So it turned out to be a good compromise for both field and target use. Glad I went this route. When I was 24 the extra pound probably wouldn't have made much difference. But now at 64 the weight factor is right at the top of importance. :haha: Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[Alden]

Very nice, and reasonably manageable, Ricky. Twist?

 

[Billnpatti]

Much depends on how much money you have to spend. If your funds allow it, I would look at some of the reputable custom gun makers. A gun fron one of them will run you $2,000 or more. If your funds are limited, as most of us are, I would recommend a Lyman Great Plains Rifle. It is probably the most accurate as to style and are a good quality rifle. Let me make this one caveat, the older GPRs were of excellent quality and I would have absolutely no recervations about recommending that you buy one. However, I have heard from more than one source that the current production has declined considerably in their quality. Some are still quite good and others are not so much so. If you find one that was made about 8 or 10 or more years ago and is in good condition, you will have a fine rifle. If you buy a new one, go to a reputable store and look carefully at the Lyman GPR rifle that you want to buy. If the wood to metal fit is good and the overall assembly looks good, ask about any warranty that the store offers and any that the manufacturer offers and how do you get the warranty service. If it turns out to have problems, will the store take care of it for you or will you have to ship it back to the manufacturer. Shipping can cost you upwards of $30 + the packaging costs Be sure that they both stand behind their products.....just in case.

I used to own a flintlock GPR and I can tell you that that was one fine rifle but it was probably made 10 years ago. Find a good one and you will have a pretty authentic dandy rifle at a pretty reasonable price.

 

[crockett]

C.J. you might be putting the cart before the horse. A Hawken rifle has a lot of unique features and as stated, some of these features could vary a little from rifle to rifle but the patent breech, tang, trigger plate, etc. on all the rifles I think they were very similar. In any event I would get a couple of books on Hawken rifles and examine the photos.
Chuck: if you are still out there....what's your opinion of the TOW Hawken rifle kits as compared to what Don has and how are they different? Thanks.