Another Help me decide, I'm new to BP and Flintlocks post!

[Dan_273]

Sorry as this is a beat to death topic, but..... the black powder bug has bitten me and after much research on this forum as well as across the interwebs as far as google would take me I have narrowed it down to 3 rifles. They are as follows in no purposeful order that I am aware of.

Lyman Deerstalker .54 Caliber Flintlock
Barrel length 24" Twist 1:48

Lyman Trade Rifle .54 Caliber Flintlock
Barrel length 28" Twist 1:48

Lyman Great Plains .54 Caliber Flintlock
Barrel length 32" Twist 1:60

I am looking for a rifle to use hunting, mainly whitetail deer and with PRB's most likely as I'd like to cast my own for both cost savings and self-reliance. I'd also like something I can enjoy shooting regularly. I live in East TN and hunt around the mountains, edges of mountains, and farmlands/pastures. I do not do PC rendezvous or anything nor do I shoot competitions, even though I think both are cool, especially the rendezvous! I will mainly be hunting and shooting on my property. I don't like the super shiny, brassy, fancy guns as much as the more understated ones and am looking for more a rock-solid shooter/hunter than a show-piece / safe-queen. All three of those are in my budget with the GPR being the most expensive.

I was looking at .50, but after much research bumped up to .54 as I have read it is the better choice for PRB and would also be ideal for about any animal that walks the earth which would open up going out west for Elk, Caribou, etc... As well as for use on bears.

From my understanding, the Great Plains with the longer barrel and slower twist is the best suited for PRB's, but for hunting and hunting in the mountains do the others then give me just as much advantage on their overall size and I'd also assume faster handling? Also, would the 1:48 barrels also give me the opportunity to shoot cast lead conicals as well as PRB's whereas the 1:60 is mainly a PRB barrel? The GPR also gives me a double trigger, but I have heard single triggers are sturdier so there's that that I am taking into consideration.

Last questions. For powder, with the current shortages everywhere what would be recommended (Unfortunately I don't have anywhere local to get any)? For flints what is good to start with and how many should I order, stock up on? I don't want to run into a situation like there is with ammo and primers right now and figure it will take me a bit to get the hang of flintlocks and then knapping my own flint if I can find any locally so I'd rather err on the side of having "too" many vs running out and having to search for them, they don't seem to be overly expensive.

If you made it this far I appreciate you taking the time to do so. If you have advice/input for me I appreciate it even more!


Thanks,
Dan

PS. Alas, buying all three is not an option (at this time), so I need to narrow it down to one of the three to start.

 

[rusty]

I like the trade rifle myself

 

[TreeMan]

Get the Great Plains. Heckuva rifle. Double set triggers too boot. Order you a dozen flints from track of the wolf. Order your blackpowder online too. Flintlocks and fake powders don’t mix. You’ll need the real stuff.

 

[Dan_273]

Yes, I like the Trade and the Deerstalker the best and was thinking the Trade was a nice middle of the road option. Also figured I could darken the brass on it some so it's not so shiny. I really like the compact look of the Deerstalker, but the Trade seems like it might be "more traditional" but then again seeing as I don't really do any PC stuff not sure if that's as a big of a deal as it being great in the woods and shooting in general. But I do know the GPR seems to be a go to rifle across the forum and I’m sure for good reason.

 

[Zonie]

Dan:
For shooting patched lead roundballs, the important thing is the depth of the rifling grooves.

You've might have read that the 1:48 twist barrels is a compromise twist intended to allow both patched roundballs and bullets to be shot. This is true for the Thompson Center Hawken, but it is not the case with the Lyman guns you listed. The Thompson Center barrels rifling grooves are .005" deep.

All three of the Lyman guns you list have deep rifling grooves that are suitable for large powder loads under patched roundballs.

The old Dixie Gun Works catalog says the Lyman Deerstalker rifling grooves are .008 deep. The rifling grooves for the Lyman Trade Rifle and the Lyman Great Plains Rifle are .010 deep.

 

[tenngun]

The brass will tarnish pretty quick. A .54 is great.
Double set triggers are a dream and no danger in the woods. About one range session is all you need to know them and love them.

 

[Grenadier1758]

...
Last questions. For powder, with the current shortages everywhere what would be recommended (Unfortunately I don't have anywhere local to get any)? For flints what is good to start with and how many should I order, stock up on? I don't want to run into a situation like there is with ammo and primers right now and figure it will take me a bit to get the hang of flintlocks and then knapping my own flint if I can find any locally so I'd rather err on the side of having "too" many vs running out and having to search for them, they don't seem to be overly expensive.

If you made it this far I appreciate you taking the time to do so. If you have advice/input for me I appreciate it even more!


Thanks,
Dan

PS. Alas, buying all three is not an option (at this time), so I need to narrow it down to one of the three to start.

@Dan_273, you are planning on getting a flintlock. I would recommend the Lyman Great Plains. Its probably the best for round ball. You are going to be using real black powder. Look for GOEX 2fg although GOEX 3fg will work fine as well. The 3fg can be used as the priming charge for the pan so 3fg is probably your first choice. At the present time you may have to order powder on line. Black powder can be shipped to your home. Generally a 4 pound selection even paying the hazardous materials fees will be cheaper than finding real black powder locally.

You are right. Your first flint lock is likely to be just the start.

If you have questions the Muzzleloading Forum is the place to start.

 

[gabedard]

Trade rifle is a pound lighter than the GPR
Owned them both can’t go wrong with either as a first BP rifle

 

[user 48679]

Shooting PRB's means using a 1:60" (+/-) twist for best results.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Patched round ball loads can be quite accurate in the Lyman 1 in 48 twist with the 0.010" deep grooves. Actually that Lyman rifle Trade Rifle or Deerstalker would be better suited for round ball than conical. The deep grooves would subject the conical to gas cutting and loss of accuracy.

 

[Huntschool]

Go with the RB twist and work on your loads. I am 73 years old and have been at this for near 50 years. I feel like I can speak with some knowledge here.... You can load up and load down a RB rifle to do what you want and shoot hellish groups with both. Particularly in .54 caliber.... I dont feel like you can do that as well with 1:48 twist. JMHO

Want more info.... PM me.

 

[Dryball]

Great Plains 1:60 is great rifle. I have several. If you want variety you can buy other barrels in either fast or roundball twist. You can also upgrade the lock if you want with a replacement from L&R Locks

 

[Dan_273]

Thanks for all the information/suggestions so far! Seems like all 3 would be good based on what everyone has said so far. Not making it easier to decide!

Tough decision, that I am going to sleep on tonight I think, but I am leaning heavily towards the Deerstalker for the reasons that I am not looking for something PC right now, and it seems to have good reviews and a strong following. It'd be about $80 less which would leave quite a bit left in my budget for flints, powder, RB's, and all the other various things I am going to need. However, if $80 gets me a much better rifle then it would be worth it.

Not sure what I'd gain over the Deerstalker going to the Trade?..... But open to it still as well.

Also thinking it would be a good start into BP and flintlocks. I'd like to tackle a kit one day at which time a flint GPR kit would be good as I could take my time and really do a nice job with it to have something nice and along the PC times look/feel. The GPR would be about $100 more than the Trade and around $180 more than the Deerstalker. A kit would be less and again would give me the opportunity to do a really nice job with it OR when that time comes get a kit for something even nicer and more PC worth putting the money into.

 

[Capnball]

Sorry as this is a beat to death topic, but..... the black powder bug has bitten me and after much research on this forum as well as across the interwebs as far as google would take me I have narrowed it down to 3 rifles. They are as follows in no purposeful order that I am aware of.

Lyman Deerstalker .54 Caliber Flintlock
Barrel length 24" Twist 1:48

Lyman Trade Rifle .54 Caliber Flintlock
Barrel length 28" Twist 1:48

Lyman Great Plains .54 Caliber Flintlock
Barrel length 32" Twist 1:60

I am looking for a rifle to use hunting, mainly whitetail deer and with PRB's most likely as I'd like to cast my own for both cost savings and self-reliance. I'd also like something I can enjoy shooting regularly. I live in East TN and hunt around the mountains, edges of mountains, and farmlands/pastures. I do not do PC rendezvous or anything nor do I shoot competitions, even though I think both are cool, especially the rendezvous! I will mainly be hunting and shooting on my property. I don't like the super shiny, brassy, fancy guns as much as the more understated ones and am looking for more a rock-solid shooter/hunter than a show-piece / safe-queen. All three of those are in my budget with the GPR being the most expensive.

I was looking at .50, but after much research bumped up to .54 as I have read it is the better choice for PRB and would also be ideal for about any animal that walks the earth which would open up going out west for Elk, Caribou, etc... As well as for use on bears.

From my understanding, the Great Plains with the longer barrel and slower twist is the best suited for PRB's, but for hunting and hunting in the mountains do the others then give me just as much advantage on their overall size and I'd also assume faster handling? Also, would the 1:48 barrels also give me the opportunity to shoot cast lead conicals as well as PRB's whereas the 1:60 is mainly a PRB barrel? The GPR also gives me a double trigger, but I have heard single triggers are sturdier so there's that that I am taking into consideration.

Last questions. For powder, with the current shortages everywhere what would be recommended (Unfortunately I don't have anywhere local to get any)? For flints what is good to start with and how many should I order, stock up on? I don't want to run into a situation like there is with ammo and primers right now and figure it will take me a bit to get the hang of flintlocks and then knapping my own flint if I can find any locally so I'd rather err on the side of having "too" many vs running out and having to search for them, they don't seem to be overly expensive.

If you made it this far I appreciate you taking the time to do so. If you have advice/input for me I appreciate it even more!


Thanks,
Dan

PS. Alas, buying all three is not an option (at this time), so I need to narrow it down to one of the three to start.

I really like the LGP in 54RB long barrel. It's way up on my list of must have muzzleloaders. I have a beautiful Pedersoli Flinchlock in .45 so that rock lock itch has been scratched so I'll go for the percussion model on the Lyman's. They may be better suited for hunting in wet weather then flintlock also. But really, it's all about what you like. My favorite thing about the LGP rifles is these are working rifles. You ding them up a bit, no big deal. You won't feel like you destroyed a family heirloom. If you want to personalize the gun, no problem. It's a very nice canvas for carving, engraving, case hardening, staining, inlays, medallions, you name it. If all of that is the kind of stuff that trips your trigger, Lyman makes everything in a kit form to. If you're good with your hands you can finish one of these kits in your garage with some basic tools in a couple weekends. At the end of the day you always end up with a decent looking gun that shoots well enough to hunt with that won't break the bank. If your pockets are deep enough (about double LGP and up) I'd say Kibler. The guy will sell you any part of a gun from lock parts, stock blanks, complete kits up to and including completed guns built to your specifications. Really, really beautiful stuff. Great customer service to. Best part? Made in the USA! Good luck, let us know what decide. Oh, we love pictures of new guns like women love baby pictures so post a few pics of whatever you get.
Neil

 

[Dan_273]

@Capnball Yes, Kibler is a kit I had looked and my thought is getting a "hunter" BP flintlock now and a nice kit like one of his, or something along those lines down the road to finish and serve as more of an "heirloom" type of piece that I could still take out and hunt, but something worth passing down for generations to come. Not that the Lyman would not also serve the purpose of passing on, but I think you know what I mean.

I am good with hands and at one time was a furniture maker and trim carpenter, but right now have a lot going on and not a good workshop setup. Those two things make me think I'd rather take on a kit down the road when I'll have time and not end up rushing it, or cutting any corners if that makes sense.

Still tossed up between the 3, but leaning more towards either the Deerstalker or Trade (for now).

 

[Capnball]

@Capnball Yes, Kibler is a kit I had looked and my thought is getting a "hunter" BP flintlock now and a nice kit like one of his, or something along those lines down the road to finish and serve as more of an "heirloom" type of piece that I could still take out and hunt, but something worth passing down for generations to come. Not that the Lyman would not also serve the purpose of passing on, but I think you know what I mean.

Still tossed up between the 3, but leaning more towards either the Deerstalker or Trade (for now).

All three will do the job for sure. All similarly priced?
That's always the thing that brings me back to the LGP.
BTW, I saw the a LGP flintlock in .54 went up for sale yesterday in the classifieds for like $650 and sold within two posts.
Neil
Neil

 

[NorthFork]

Of the 3 you mention I would lean Trade. That said I'm not a fan of Lyman/Investarms.

 

[Dan_273]

Yeah, I saw that one too @Capnball good deal and was a nice looking rifle.

As for pricing here is what I have found as the best deals.

• Lyman Deerstalker .54 Caliber Flintlock $516.64 shipped w/tax
• Lyman Trade Rifle .54 Caliber Flintlock $594.79 shipped w/tax
• Great Plains .54 Caliber Flintlock $694.82 shipped w/tax

That puts the LGP up there getting closer to a Kibler which is one hesitation I have about pulling the trigger on the GP. Also looked at the TVM kits as well.

The deeper rifling that @Zonie mentioned leads me to lean towards the Trade, but all solid reviews I read on the Deerstalker lead me to lean towards it.

 

[Capnball]

I have no experience with the trade rifle but man, alot of people like that gun. You never see them used for sale either (for very long, lol)
I've actually shouldered the GPR and my shoulder just sucked that gun in. Like it was part of me. Some guns are so nice I'm afraid the stitching non my t shirt might scratch it. Years ago I bought a new helmet for my bike. I really spent some time picking it out and getting it fit to my head exactly right because it was replacing a helmet that saved my life. (Another story) anyway, the bucket was beautiful with adjustable vents for cooling, washable memory foam liner and the deepest, smoothest most beautiful black paint job you ever saw. First day out with it I hung it on my handle bar. I leaned against the bike and shook it just enough to knock the helmet off the bar and dropped it four feet to the rough gravel covered black top parking lot. Two big gouges right to the carbon fiber and I knocked one of those snazzy vents off (never to be found again) I surveyed the damage and I remember thinking "man, am I glad that's over!' I never took a polishing cloth to it ever again. I wore it for five years like that and oddly, I never so much as dinged it again.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have been down this road before and this is just my opinion:
I wanted to get into flintlocks for hunting at the lowest entry cost. I tried to get the best value for the money like anyone would. Frankly, I was disappointed in many ways and in the long run ended up spending more money to get the value rifle right than if I just got a better one to begin with. Once I was done tinkering with the rifle, I still wasnt in love with it and ended up with a different one anyway and took a small loss on the original.

The patent breach system is a mass manufacturing necessity (my opinion). It reduced efficiency by its nature. You have to get powder to go down into the smaller chamber. Maybe easy on first shot, clean dry barrel. Next shot you have crud, moisture and minute deposits throughout the barrel. You pour powder and it is supposed to get down the barrel and back into that small chamber without hanging up. My experience is that it's hard to get the patent breach full after subsequent shots. The patent breach is hard to clean too. Then the flash hole is tiny. It's easy to drill it out. Exactly how much though? A lot of information points towards 1/16th. I found that is not so in every case. It might be a tad small yet or it might be too big. Then the frizzen. In some cases with "factory" rifles the springs are not adjusted properly for good spark, easy opening or the hardness is in question. The "factory" or Importer warranty is just to replace the part. They're not spending time tuning it or making it right, just switching things out without really tuning anything. You have to check the cock angle. Then, there are many reports of concern about wood-to-metal fit. Sights are not my first choice for hunting but that's a personal thing.

If you are patient, have realistic expectations, don't mind tinkering and can afford to have down time for your rifle then go ahead with a factory rifle. They are better than ever and the Lyman's by Pedersoli got initial rave reviews. Me, I'd rather find a used proven rifle. If you can talk to the owner of a used Lyman or anything else you want and trust the seller you can find one that has already been tweaked or has never had a problem. Even better is if you can try before you buy.

I realize this sounds negative and to some extent it is. I read everything I could about flintlock shooting, shot with a mentor and his rifles and went to town trying it on my own. CVA Hawken flintlock, Traditions Pennsylvania, T/C Renegade and Lyman GPR (all .54 caliber and flintlock). I spent more time frustrated and puzzled and lost the enjoyment. Then I figured out the advice aforementioned. I got a T/C Hawken .54 from an owner that replaced the barrel with a GM. He let me shoot it pretty much all day until I decided to buy it. It was reliable, accurate and had good features. I figured out it was a little heavy and unbalanced when I started to hunt with it. That's just a personal preference. Finally found a semi-custom rifle at around $1000 and haven't looked back. Instant ignition, extremely accurate, well balanced, long flint life, good trigger pull, lightweight, excellent hunting sights and the lock has been tuned. The lock is a popular brand so parts or repair are available.

The enthusiasm that you have to get started with your new rifle is fantastic. Please don't let that make your decision short and potentially regrettable. Maybe make a pros and cons list of what you want compared to what you get or "prefered" features vs. "compromise" features. Ask lots of questions here and elsewhere. I wish you all the best and look forward to exciting reports of your progress!

I asked the lock-maker what they recommended for flints and stuck with that. They've been fantastic. One last a long time in my rifle. I would start with at least a dozen. You are going to need black powder. A lot of rifles will charge and prime with 3F and work great. Some prefer 4F prime and some may prefer 2F charge. Again, if you can talk to a previous owner you can determine this ahead of time. Otherwise, trial and error is the only way to figure that out. You will need to order powder or find a good source. You might order one pound 4F, and two each of 3F and 2F. Then you can figure out the load and prime situation for your new rifle. Once you do, one more order will get you a lot of powder and about 87+ shots per pound of powder with a hunting load. For prime a pound will give you 1750 shots or more. You should also see what the lock manufacturer says about lead or leather for the cock and possibly try both of those. It seems leather is more popular but I have a lock where the manufacturer spent time listening to me on the phone and told me switch to lead. That made ignition better with a lot more sparks.

Good luck!