Another mystery

[The Crisco Kid]

I shot this 50 yd target this morning with my new 50 caliber percussion. I'd just installed the sights and wanted to see how close they are before I finish them. Ignore the small holes, they're from a modern rifle (a rolling block) and so are the holes in the upper right.
What's odd is that the bottom group was with an .018 patch and the much smaller upper group was with a .010 super muslin patch that loaded so easy I just used the ramrod, no short starter. According to all of what we're told this is just the opposite of the way it should be. Tight load equals tight group, etc. I don't think it's a fluke with a 5 shot group but it definitely needs more research. If I can repeat it a few times I may have lucked into a great hunting combination. 70 grains Schuetzen FF .488 ball (from a .490 marked mold).

 

[NorthFork]

I've never understood the fascination with tight loads. Especially those that basically require hammering the ball down the bore. All I use is .010", .013", or .015" as a last resort with a 'loose' bore or one that has excessively deep grooves. For example, most of my 50cal rifles shoot best with a .490 nominal size ball that actually measures .493" from my mold and a .010" patch. Either spit or TOTW mink tallow as a lube. I can shoot all day without patching out the fouling and I can seat the ball with modest pressure on the ramrod.

I've tried the .018" ticking and have gotten worse accuracy. I also had to really REALLY whack the short starter to get it started and very heavy pressure on the ramrod to seat. For reference I'm 5'6" and 235# of blue collar worker muscle (flab in my older years?). The accuracy really suffered. And it was one shot then swab, one shot then swab, no matter the lube.

I really doubt our forefathers shot tight loads.

I know this flies in the face of conventional wisdom and if you like tight loads, more power to yah. I'll stick with my easy to start and easy to seat loads that in my rifles are more accurate any day of the week. So to the OP, maybe like me you have stumbled on to what I discovered a few years ago. The load does not have to be hammered down the bore to be accurate.

edit-can't spell today

 

[tenngun]

Accuracy is a null term. A gun at best will shoot one hole. In reality that won’t happen. A tighter combination might take a inch, or inch and a half off your group. But is it worth it?
That’s better then my main guns shoot at that range, both smoothbore. Is that good?
They will turn Bambi french, but won’t win at the nationals. What’s acceptable to you?
Real world applications apply. I would be very happy if my rifle gun did that consistently, but a dyed in the capote blood shooter might not.
No you didn’t violate any rules. Are you happy with that is the only rule that counts.
The old timers would have said ‘that’s good shoot in’ pard.

 

[deermanok]

I have two rifles, one 45 cal and the other a 50.
With the 45, I use a .445 ball and .010 patch. The 50, shoots best with a .495 ball and .010 patch.
I can push the ball down either gun with a .015 patch but it is difficult and I don't see any improvement with accuracy.
So I guess I'm in the thin patch camp.

 

[hanshi]

As a general "rule-of-thumb" the tight load, tight group rule does often hold true. But each barrel is an individual and may prefer a looser fit. I load tight prb but they are still relatively easy to seat with the wood ramrod. I have a couple others which require a bit thinner patch than my usual .024" canvas. My smoothbore does it's miracle with a .012" patch.

 

[NorthFork]

@hanshi

I look to you as an 'expert' on this forum so no disrespect is ever intended.

How the heck are you cramming .024" canvas with ANY ball down the bore!!??

 

[deerstalkert]

i have a .45 that shoots best with .010 patch. a .50 that likes .018 patch. a .54 that likes a .535 and a .010 patch.
i shoot the .45 the most because i can use thumb and forefinger to seat the ball/patch. so pleasant.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

I guess I've always been in the easy loading camp myself. My hunting accuracy standard has always been a paper plate. That's for offhand shooting. If I can keep all my shots on one I can kill any deer that ever lived as long as the ball hits the deer in the right spot. Shooting off the bench like this morning I expect a lot better. Of course squirrels and rabbits are different as is shooting for score at a match. I've even found that a bare ball rammed down of the powder is plenty accurate out to 25 yards or so. I imagine that there were a lot of critters brought down that way in the past when the shooting had to be fast. At any rate, it's always a nice surprise when a new rifle starts off like it did this morning.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I shot this 50 yd target this morning with my new 50 caliber percussion. I'd just installed the sights and wanted to see how close they are before I finish them. Ignore the small holes, they're from a modern rifle (a rolling block) and so are the holes in the upper right.
What's odd is that the bottom group was with an .018 patch and the much smaller upper group was with a .010 super muslin patch that loaded so easy I just used the ramrod, no short starter. According to all of what we're told this is just the opposite of the way it should be. Tight load equals tight group, etc. I don't think it's a fluke with a 5 shot group but it definitely needs more research. If I can repeat it a few times I may have lucked into a great hunting combination. 70 grains Schuetzen FF .488 ball (from a .490 marked mold).

View attachment 148227

I’m going to guess that this is a brand new barrel on this gun…

 

[The Crisco Kid]

I’m going to guess that this is a brand new barrel on this gun…

New to me but it's a Douglas barrel that was given to me by a friend who put several thousand rounds through it when he shot in competition. It has some light pitting but the price was right, as in free. I thought that if it didn't work out I could have it recut to 54 or just rebarrel the rifle.

 

[NorthFork]

In addition to my prior post.....

I do NOT promote mediocrity. If a tight fitting ball/patch combo is the most accurate for you then use it! That said, I repeat, I don't think our forefathers used tight fitting loads. I've found for me, looser than common wisdom loads work best for me.

 

[SOLANCO]

I shot this 50 yd target this morning with my new 50 caliber percussion. I'd just installed the sights and wanted to see how close they are before I finish them. Ignore the small holes, they're from a modern rifle (a rolling block) and so are the holes in the upper right.
What's odd is that the bottom group was with an .018 patch and the much smaller upper group was with a .010 super muslin patch that loaded so easy I just used the ramrod, no short starter. According to all of what we're told this is just the opposite of the way it should be. Tight load equals tight group, etc. I don't think it's a fluke with a 5 shot group but it definitely needs more research. If I can repeat it a few times I may have lucked into a great hunting combination. 70 grains Schuetzen FF .488 ball (from a .490 marked mold).

View attachment 148227

More research = more shooting. You won't need to be in the library.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

New to me but it's a Douglas barrel that was given to me by a friend who put several thousand rounds through it when he shot in competition. It has some light pitting but the price was right, as in free. I thought that if it didn't work out I could have it recut to 54 or just rebarrel the rifle.

Long time ago, I had a brand new barrel that liked loose patching…shot real tight groups. Then after about 200-300 shots, the groups completely opened up, and the barrel suddenly liked tight patches, like all my other barrels.

So I figured…Ahah…I’ve seen this before…

 

[LME]

Long time ago, I had a brand new barrel that liked loose patching…shot real tight groups. Then after about 200-300 shots, the groups completely opened up, and the barrel suddenly liked tight patches, like all my other barrels.

So I figured…Ahah…I’ve seen this before…

A new barrel or one that has sat up for some time or has some wear usually doesn't come into its own untill a few shots have been run threw the barrel. This may be why your rifle shot better with the loose patched ball?I have shot quite a few B.P. rifles and this seems to be the case? When one talks about a tight patch it doesn't mean you have to hammer the ball down the barrel but is should take a ball starter and a firm push or tap to get it started. If I were you I would try a snug fitting ball again and if you have a friend that is a good shooter let him try it as well. Logic leans toward a snug ball flying better as it grabs the rifling better. This has been the results I always get?

 

[david w]

In addition to my prior post.....

I do NOT promote mediocrity. If a tight fitting ball/patch combo is the most accurate for you then use it! That said, I repeat, I don't think our forefathers used tight fitting loads. I've found for me, looser than common wisdom loads work best for me.

I have never seen mallets as a part of accessories in original hunting bags. It it rare to have seen short starters as well. I have used the tight combo in the past, and have literally beaten short starters to the point they were unusable. I use a short starter because I don't have the time to buy custom size ball moulds.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have found that "hammering in" tight balls does not improve my accuracy over snug fitting loads. I have also noted that the best shooters I shoot with do not hammer in their loads. Bench shooters often hammer in their loads and many have false muzzles to protect their actual muzzle when loading. So there must be something to be said for tight fitting loads.

 

[dave951]

Tight load/tight group is just a guideline. It often happens that way, but not always. That's why I advocate experimentation changing only one variable at the time and observing the results.

 

[Rawhide67]

@hanshi I look to you as an 'expert' on this forum so no disrespect is ever intended.

How the heck are you cramming .024" canvas with ANY ball down the bore!!??

Maybe his balls are small.

 

[Dreamhawk]

I shot this 50 yd target this morning with my new 50 caliber percussion. I'd just installed the sights and wanted to see how close they are before I finish them. Ignore the small holes, they're from a modern rifle (a rolling block) and so are the holes in the upper right.
What's odd is that the bottom group was with an .018 patch and the much smaller upper group was with a .010 super muslin patch that loaded so easy I just used the ramrod, no short starter. According to all of what we're told this is just the opposite of the way it should be. Tight load equals tight group, etc. I don't think it's a fluke with a 5 shot group but it definitely needs more research. If I can repeat it a few times I may have lucked into a great hunting combination. 70 grains Schuetzen FF .488 ball (from a .490 marked mold).

View attachment 148227

With my .50 caliber Hawken, I tried all sorts of combinations. Finally, I tried using a .10 muslin patch with a .490 round ball. It loaded fairly easy, so I expected a poor pattern, but it was closer than anything I had tried! Finally, I lubed with 50/50 beeswax and buffalo suet (from kidney fat). But I reckon beef suet will work too. Tuned my load to 90 grains of FFg, and I was cutting ragged holes at 100 yards off a bench. Ended up getting deer, elk, and coyotes with this load. It's all in what the gun likes. Not in what somebody says, or what you read. Just use all this stuff for a guide, and figure out what your gun digests best!

 

[Redlemur60]

Accuracy is a null term. A gun at best will shoot one hole. In reality that won’t happen. A tighter combination might take a inch, or inch and a half off your group. But is it worth it?
That’s better then my main guns shoot at that range, both smoothbore. Is that good?
They will turn Bambi french, but won’t win at the nationals. What’s acceptable to you?
Real world applications apply. I would be very happy if my rifle gun did that consistently, but a dyed in the capote blood shooter might not.
No you didn’t violate any rules. Are you happy with that is the only rule that counts.
The old timers would have said ‘that’s good shoot in’ pard.

2 shotz 1 hole!