Another Oldie To help Identify

[Splais]

My neighbor noticed I am into MLing now and brought over an old musket for me to see. It was in REALLY bad shape; but it's a family heirloom that belonged to his great grandfather. anyway, this is all I can tell you because of the rust.

Percussion (lock & trigger stile work)that measured out around 69 cal best I can tell.

It has '1819' on the side flat of the barrel (octagon to round) back by the breech. Only the first 3" or so back by breech is ocatagonal, the rest is tapered round. The top flat has '124' about in same place. The number '753' is stamped on the upper part of the buttplate with a small 'o' stamped in front of, but not part of, the number.

This smoothbore looks like it might have had a full stock that the center section was removed from because the front barrel band has the same wood in it. I'm also not sure the badly damaged wood ramrod is original

The front sight is intergral (cast into) the rear portion of the double front barrel band.

 

[Story]

1812 Springfield, converted to percussion via bolster method, it looks like.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=19340

Although the squared off trigger guard front and rear tips are odd.

 

[wtilenw]

WOW! That grass looks like carpet.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Could be European of the same period. The stock may have broken or been "civilianized" to lighten it up.

 

[Splais]

It's close to the 1812, but the barrel is all wrong as is the rear sling bracket and a couple of other things.

Is that bar in the 2nd to last picture some kind of takedown release?

Watch it! making cracks about my grass is not nice :nono:

 

[Mulebrain]

WOW! That grass looks like carpet.

That was my first thought as well! Not one weed! I cannot say the same for my own :shake:

You got an old full stock musket, that is made up of parts from here and there.

 

[Zonie]

I don't claim to know a lot about these old muskets so I'm using the latest edition of Flayderman's Guide for reference.

Looking at the pictures posted above, several of them seem to show brass parts. The butt plate especially looks like it is brass.
If it is not, perhaps SPlais could inform us if any brass parts are on the gun?
The reason this might be important is I notice that Flayderman indicates that the Springfield guns have iron furniture.

The front barrel band doesn't look like the front barrel band in the link that Story gave.
That barrel band had a pronounced curve between the two top straps while the band in SPlais post has a straight shape in the connection between the straps.
The 1795 Springfield has this straight section, as does the Model 1816 Musket.
The 1816 by the way was made between the years of 1816 and 1840 which would put it in the time frame for the "1819" marking.

Another concern I have is no mention was made of a "V" or more importantly a "P" on the breech of the barrel. These are view and proof marks that are marked on most if not all of the guns made by Springfield, Harpers Ferry or by the many sub contractors that provided guns to the Military.

In any case, I would say that yes, this once was a full stocked gun. The middle barrel band is missing. The ramrod is a replacement for a steel ramrod. It was converted to percussion and most likely saw service in the Civil war and possibly in the Mexican/American war.

An interesting old gun. It is too bad that it is in such poor shape.
Speaking of its condition, it probably isn't worth much from a money point of view but I'm sure the personal value means a great deal to the owner.

 

[Splais]

From looking at it, the lock is iron, the rest perhaps brass. It is VERY HARD to read anything because of the rust. I had to use high magnification and side lighting to get what I got. but now that I know were to look I'll check again.

Value wasn't part of the discussion, it's just a treasured family heirloom. he also has an old Parker Percussion double shotgun muzzleloader that is in even worse shape. Too, bad because with a little care they could have really had something.

The lawn is Synthetic Grass from a company called ProGreen. :blah:

 

[wtilenw]

......

Watch it! making cracks about my grass is not nice :nono:

Let me rephrase that. "Gee, your lawn sure looks nice" :grin:

 

[mazo kid]

It's hard to see a gun so seriously neglected when with a bit of care it could have been preserved in much better condition. Thanks for being a good neighbor and for sharing. Emery

 

[Stumpkiller]

Is that bar in the 2nd to last picture some kind of takedown release?

That's a spring to retain the barrel band. Used on various military muskets and rifles from many countries right on up through WWII.

 

[musketman]

I would venture to say its a .69 caliber 1816 musket that was converted to percussion, the front sight looks like the one used on the three barrel band muskets. The fore stock was obviously broken and trimmed.

Caution must be taken with old guns for many were stored loaded and handed down generation to generation with a live round still in them.

 

[Splais]

from looking at many pictures it looks like this is some kind of conversion of the model 1816. The front barrel band, trigger guard, rear sling mount, slightly octagonal breech all match. The thing that doesn't match is the way it was converted (may be a civilian conversion) because I found a picture of an Armory conversion that stated it was the only authorized method of conversion. The only other thing is that it appears the rear barrel band retaining spring was reversed from forward to rearward mounting when the stock center section was removed. I'm going to take a couple more pics today and look for more markings.

 

[Tinker2]

Splais

I am no expert and may be wrong but..

Looks just like my old Prussian 1809 musket, converted from flint to percussion in 1834-39. Some of the Prussian units painted the stocks black.

“The Prussian grenadiers, fusiliers and musketeers were armed with muskets. The stock was black for fusiliers and brown for fusketeers. The fittings were brass and the sling was red.” http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napo...Prussian_infantry.htm#prussianinfantryweapons

I believe the original ramrods were metal. Looks like the original bayonet keeper is still there. How long is the barrel??

Looks like you could replace just the wood that is missing and graft it to the old wood, cover the seam with the barrel bands.

Parts and new stocks:
Page 146 in my The Rifle Shoppe catalog. http://www.therifleshoppe.com/(777).htm



I hope this helps, like I said, I am no expert on the Prussian musket.



Tinker2

 

[Splais]

Boy, just when I think I got it someone comes along and throws gas on the fire. Yes, it looks a lot like the 1809 Prussian; more than like the 1816 Springfield. And the barrel band retaining spring is the correct direction. BUT the barrel is all wrong back by the breech.

I don't know how these old rifles were so much alike and yet so different. The two new photos don't really show what I'm talking about but I wanted to show top of breech area. The barrel is 41 3/16 long.

 

[musketman]

Yes, it looks a lot like the 1809 Prussian; more than like the 1816 Springfield. And the barrel band retaining spring is the correct direction. BUT the barrel is all wrong back by the breech.

Could be a parts gun, someone took salvaged parts from different but simular weapons to make one functional gun.

 

[Splais]

Am I not correct thought, that the lock AND barrel would have had to be built together. for the nipples, vent holes, etc to all line up? The lock/hammer/drum/triggerguard sure seems to be 1809 prussian; but the barrel is not, from the few pics I've been able to find.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A lot of the muskets from this period have a similar appearance because they were based on the French muskets of the time. The French made some of the most advanced weapons of the period and so were often copied by others.

 

[LaBonte]

Everything looks like my Potsdam built in 1820 and converted in 1843 including the breech and tang - only difference is mine has rear sight and is 11 gauge.....

Here's w whole bunch of pics of a Potsdam - ignore the hammer it'sa replacement.http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=2&cat=19&page=1

 

[BEP]

Sure looks like the remains of a "Potsdam". The bayonet lug on the bottom of the muzzle, the buttstock recessed on the left side, the brass furniture, the lockplate shape, etc. Missing the usual "tombstone" rear sight, though. And even though they don't usually sell for the high dollar when in much better shape than this one, it's a pity to see one gone to rack and ruin.

sneezy