Antique Drinking Horn?

[vtbuck223]

I'm looking to get as much help as possible on this so I posted it over at the ALR forum also. I picked it up at an antique store recenty. I don't collect drinking horns but I really like the engraving and the color. The figure obviously has a religious connection...is it a saint, a priest, nun, or the Virgin Mary? If so...why on a drinking horn? The lettering around the figure appears to be a SJ over a heart on the left and an AM over a heart on the right. The two big letters are obviously MT with a symbol below. There is also another symbol or lettering that I can't make out? I would appreciate any thougts or information you may have on this.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Interesting. Looks like an attempt to portray the virgin Mary.
I know drinking cups have long been used. But, I have tried them and always get unpleasant tastes from them. Maybe if epoxy lined, just like they did in 1700 :wink: , it would be alright.

 

[Nifeman]

Looks Aztec or Mayan to me. But what do I know...

 

[123.DieselBenz]

Probably owned by a preist ... They have been known to drink ... Or maybe it was an old comunion cup?

 

Looks Mexican.

 

[vtbuck223]

I just wanted to share what Tim Crosby from the ALR forum suggested. Most likely the Virgin Mary...the SJ over heart is the Sacred Heart of Jesus....the AM over heart is Auspice Maria (under the protection of Mary). MT likely the initials of the owner with the figure 8 symbol below being that of infinity. The other symbol is still unidentifed. When I take it out of the freezer...I am very tempted to have a swallow or two from it...will have to drink fast because of the worm holes though.

 

[shortbow]

Don't know if you'd want to do this with an antique or not, but I wonder if you could plug the worm holes with brewer's rezin?

 

[vtbuck223]

Shortbow...I had never heard of brewer's resin. Googled it and came up with "brewer's pitch" and "pine-tar". Sounds like it would work well. Don't know what the downside might be...but it can't be much worse than a hole.

 

[shortbow]

Sorry Brother, brewer's pitch is right. Pine tar is something else. I get mine from Jas. Townsend, and it's often used to line various drinking vessels so if the holes aren't huge it should work fine. Fairly easy to do as well.

 

[shmrck1]

vtbuck,
I would be interested to know where
you obtained it.If the symbols portrayed
are indeed religious,which I think they most likely are,to me would exclude Myan or Aztec
orgin.If you have a thought that this cup is original,I would contact your local Univercity.
They live on finding answers to these type
issues.Just a humble opinion.

BTW,
Till you find out what you actually have,
make no attempt at any type repairs.You could greatly diminish its value. AIMHO

 

[vtbuck223]

I bought this horn at a small antiqe store in Northern New England...about 50 miles from the Quebec border...just sitting in the back amongst a bunch of other junk. The horn sure looks old to me...how old I couldn't say. Here is a pic of the wormholes.

 

[MSW]

interesting looking piece ... i agree that you should try to repair it until you're sure of what you have ... might those holes be rodent damage? looks like what my kid's chinchilla did to the wallboard next to his cage.

just a thought

 

[Rifleman1776]

interesting looking piece ... i agree that you should try to repair it until you're sure of what you have ... might those holes be rodent damage? looks like what my kid's chinchilla did to the wallboard next to his cage.

just a thought

Those holes are typical of what happens to many horns. Some kind of buggie worm eats at them. His looks like the holes are fairly recent. Sad since it (apparently) survived many previous years unscathed.

 

[Civiljar]

The varnish around the carving is suspicious to me, as well as type of engraving. What shop did you get it from if you don't mind me asking?

 

[vtbuck223]

Varnish? I don't see any varnish on it at all unless you are referring to the dye? It could be the lighting...or even a flash that you are seeing as a "shine" that looks like varnish. I got this at a small antique/ junk shop not far from where I live. It was not advertised as anything...just sitting in the back amongst a bunch of junk...and I paid almost nothing for it. So...if somebody was doing all of this work to make money...they would probably want to find a different line of work. The amount of time that would have gone into it would far..far outweigh what I paid for it. I can't say anything else about it for sure...except that the horn looks old and the leather looks old...the engraving is neat...and I was happy to add it to my humble collection.

 

[Civiljar]

I was just wondering I live in Northern VT and work in the antiques field, I've seen some questionably enhanced scrimshaw work its way through in the last 6-8 months. A lot of times someone will take a legitimately old item (a powder horn etc.) and add new carvings to it to make it more interesting.

 

[Civiljar]

I also know an academic in Burlington who is an expert on Quebecois folk art I could run those pictures by if you'd like,

 

[vtbuck223]

"civiljar"...what a beautiful, sunny day in the Green Mountain State! I live about 25 miles from the Quebec border...as the crow flies...and appreciate the strong French connection to the region...in my own heritage as well. I would like to hear from anyone who has an opinion on this. It's all very interesting. Quite frankly...your post just adds to the element of mystery. If I had paid a lot of money to a seller who told me it had been used by a "black robe" then I might be concerned. But...this horn was worth more than I paid for it...even if it was scrimshawed yesterday. I am no expert in this area at all. But...I wonder how common it would be to make a drinking horn back then and not scrimshaw it at all....which is what would have had to have happened if the horn is old and the scrimshaw was recently added. Again...the horn and leather look very genuine to me. I am no expert in dating scrimshaw...I have seen 200+ year old works that look like they could have been done yesterday. I have never really received a clear answer from folks "in the know"...exactly how you make that determination for sure. Usually people say..."it just doesn't look right" or some such thing. Your experience with questionable pieces is very interesting...is there any more information you can share about them?