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Notchy Bob said:
Good grief! We’re sounding like a bunch of lawyers!

Do we really have to define what a breechloader is? Do we understand what is meant by “antique muzzleloader”? It just doesn’t sound that complicated.

Notchy Bob
Click to expand...
Yes we do. A definition is absolutely required. There are already folks who want to circumvent that rule!
Walk
 
As my friends have pointed out, we have established forum rules. You can find them right here: Forum Rules

Existing rules still apply:

1: The focus of this site is "Traditional Muzzleloading"; The history of muzzleloading weapons and battles, up to and including the American Civil War. (From the inception of firearms through 1865)

-and-

7: We do not discuss modern (in-line) muzzleloading firearms.
Early historic breech loading guns that do not use primed metallic or semi-metallic cartridges and meet the requirements of rule #1 are permitted for discussion.
See special rules at the bottom for posts about breech loading firearms.

8: Although not muzzleloaders, we do allow discussions of percussion revolvers.

9: We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets. Smoothbores using plastic wads and steel shot are an exception to this rule.

10: We do not discuss conversion cylinders or anything to do with metal cartridges.



The "Special Rules" mentioned in #7 are these:

POSTS FOR BREECH LOADING GUNS:

Ӣ The firearm must have been made prior to 1865. Replicas of these guns are also acceptable.

Ӣ The firearm must utilize an ignition system which is separate from any form or type of cartridge that may have been used to seal the breech or load the powder or the projectile.
The "cartridge" may incorporate a pan or similar device to hold priming powder.

Ӣ Vent ignited guns, Matchlocks, Wheel-locks, any form of Flintlock and its predecessors, Percussion cap and its predecessors are all acceptable for discussion.

Ӣ Discussion of needle guns, pinfire, rim fire, center fire and any similar cartridges containing priming devices or the firearms that use them is not permitted.

Ӣ Posts may be made in a suitable section such as, smoothbore, cannon, handgun, flintlock rifle or percussion rifle, based on the type of gun.
Posts in the General Muzzleloading section is recommended.

_________________

A new forum, dedicated to antique muzzleloaders, is not intended to "open up" or relax any of the existing rules. The only salient change I can see to the existing rules would be deletion of the statement about replicas. A new "Antiques" forum would be for the folks who would like to present, view, or discuss old, original muzzleloaders without needing to wade through posts about modern production and reproduction guns. Respectfully, the topic of breechloaders did not need to be introduced into our current discussion... They are already prohibited. Any discussion of breechloaders would be a non-starter anywhere on the Muzzleloading Forum, and a new section dedicated to antiques would not change that. If a gun is allowed on the Muzzleloading Forum now, and it is a genuine antique from 1865 or earlier, it would be allowed in the "Antiques" section. If a gun is not allowed on the Muzzleloading Forum now, it would not be allowed in the "Antiques" section regardless of its age. If there is any question about a gun's appropriateness for an Antiques forum, it can still be posted and discussed elsewhere on the board (e.g. Flintlock Rifles, Percussion Rifles, General Muzzleloading, etc.)

The moderators on this forum have a big job, and they do it well. However, they are realistic, and I don't necessarily see them as hair-splitters. As an example, forum rule #3 says Posts must be in English. I've seen several posts written in other languages, usually in the "New Member" section. Nobody has a conniption about it. If somebody wants to post about a gun that is obviously an antique and meets all of the other criteria, but its actual date of manufacture is not known, I would have no problem with seeing it on the antiques forum.

I hope we can get the new Antiques forum off the table and online soon, and start seeing some more of those old-timers coming out of the cabinets!

Respectfully,

Notchy Bob
 
poker said:
There is also the issue of lots of antique muzzle loading rifles that nobody can say for sure what year it was built. I see no point in being hung up on a certain timeline, as long as the spirit of the forum is respected.
Click to expand...
Best answer yet, much better than mine!
 
I am only thru page 4 of this thread. I need to read it as I will be setting up an antique firearms forum in the next day or two.
So, I will be reading all the post beyond page 4 here very soon.

I am seeing 1865 or 1870 and a couple mentioning 1899 as the cut off date. So, I'll be reading more about that.
 
Notchy Bob said:
As my friends have pointed out, we have established forum rules. You can find them right here: Forum Rules

Existing rules still apply:

1: The focus of this site is "Traditional Muzzleloading"; The history of muzzleloading weapons and battles, up to and including the American Civil War. (From the inception of firearms through 1865)

-and-

7: We do not discuss modern (in-line) muzzleloading firearms.
Early historic breech loading guns that do not use primed metallic or semi-metallic cartridges and meet the requirements of rule #1 are permitted for discussion.
See special rules at the bottom for posts about breech loading firearms.

8: Although not muzzleloaders, we do allow discussions of percussion revolvers.

9: We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets. Smoothbores using plastic wads and steel shot are an exception to this rule.

10: We do not discuss conversion cylinders or anything to do with metal cartridges.



The "Special Rules" mentioned in #7 are these:

POSTS FOR BREECH LOADING GUNS:

Ӣ The firearm must have been made prior to 1865. Replicas of these guns are also acceptable.

Ӣ The firearm must utilize an ignition system which is separate from any form or type of cartridge that may have been used to seal the breech or load the powder or the projectile.
The "cartridge" may incorporate a pan or similar device to hold priming powder.

Ӣ Vent ignited guns, Matchlocks, Wheel-locks, any form of Flintlock and its predecessors, Percussion cap and its predecessors are all acceptable for discussion.

Ӣ Discussion of needle guns, pinfire, rim fire, center fire and any similar cartridges containing priming devices or the firearms that use them is not permitted.

Ӣ Posts may be made in a suitable section such as, smoothbore, cannon, handgun, flintlock rifle or percussion rifle, based on the type of gun.
Posts in the General Muzzleloading section is recommended.

_________________

A new forum, dedicated to antique muzzleloaders, is not intended to "open up" or relax any of the existing rules. The only salient change I can see to the existing rules would be deletion of the statement about replicas. A new "Antiques" forum would be for the folks who would like to present, view, or discuss old, original muzzleloaders without needing to wade through posts about modern production and reproduction guns. Respectfully, the topic of breechloaders did not need to be introduced into our current discussion... They are already prohibited. Any discussion of breechloaders would be a non-starter anywhere on the Muzzleloading Forum, and a new section dedicated to antiques would not change that. If a gun is allowed on the Muzzleloading Forum now, and it is a genuine antique from 1865 or earlier, it would be allowed in the "Antiques" section. If a gun is not allowed on the Muzzleloading Forum now, it would not be allowed in the "Antiques" section regardless of its age. If there is any question about a gun's appropriateness for an Antiques forum, it can still be posted and discussed elsewhere on the board (e.g. Flintlock Rifles, Percussion Rifles, General Muzzleloading, etc.)

The moderators on this forum have a big job, and they do it well. However, they are realistic, and I don't necessarily see them as hair-splitters. As an example, forum rule #3 says Posts must be in English. I've seen several posts written in other languages, usually in the "New Member" section. Nobody has a conniption about it. If somebody wants to post about a gun that is obviously an antique and meets all of the other criteria, but its actual date of manufacture is not known, I would have no problem with seeing it on the antiques forum.

I hope we can get the new Antiques forum off the table and online soon, and start seeing some more of those old-timers coming out of the cabinets!

Respectfully,

Notchy Bob
Click to expand...

This is a good post for me to see and contemplate on when setting up the Original Antique Muzzleloading forum
 
Colonial Boy said:
Meriwether,
I’ve been a moderator on other forums and I don’t envy you your job at all.
I originally opted for a later date but have come to like 1865.
Keep up the good work.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind comments. The mods do the work, I just am more visible some of the time.
And I am strongly leaning to 1865 due to this is the cut off date for the forum at large.
 
Thanks Meriweather for your input and cocern..
I have a couple of 1899 Pattern F/A on my ticket. As they are both NITRO proved I concider them as modern Not Antique.
I'm still with 1865..But accept CBL's with Patents that Pre-date that as most were still used on occasions as Muzzle loaders as the Patent for mine qualifies if in diffecult places you ran out of cartridges..
If you wish to go to Many Later L/R Match Rifles this would add another very interesting Topic for possible Heated Discucion using old calibers below .500" Say .451/.461.THE OLD RULES.. OLD DOG..
 
Feltwad said:
I have always maintained that 1860-65 is a safe cut off time for antique firearms in a muzzle loading forum, raising it to 1899 will surely cause problems it will open the door to breech loaders for which they are also classed has antique
Has the date at present is 1865 there were some breech loaders built prior to that date such has pinfire and underlever hammer guns, but they were not allowed in any forums so this rule should along with repros still stand
Feltwad
Click to expand...
I am much in agreement as I have an1853 cape rifle by EM Reilly percussion of course. But if you google Reilly you will find much of his records and around 1865 he started making cartridge rifles , my cape rifle is listed.
I note 1861. He converts a ml to centrefire ad 1858 several breach loaders , pin fire But then there’s a ml in 1856. Photo my heavy .6/12b cape rifle

All interesting stuff Reilly being so well documented

Issue 41 November 2022
current issue home >

Dating your Reilly Gun or Rifle​

Gene Williams has the data that can help you.

Home > Vintage Gun Journal > Dating your Reilly Gun or Rifle
SHARETWITTER|FACEBOOK|EMAIL
Guns & Gunmakers|SEPTEMBER 2020
Like many, if not most gunmakers of the Victorian era, Reilly Gunmakers (later E.M. Reilly) closed their doors and destroyed their records when business ceased. At least, the records, if they still exist, are not known.
In order to help owners work out the likely date of manufacture of any Reilly gun or rifle, Gene Williams has compilied a painstaking set of data, which can be used to decipher the likely origin, by serial number, patent use number, address change and proof mark analysis.
1828-1912 - Extant Gun Chronology
This is the current SN list with extant guns used to make the chronology date-chart. Reilly SN'd around 33,000 guns from the early 1820's to 1912. There are about 390 listed here (not including the Riggs numbered guns) with about 50 more known but with SN's not published, a little more than 1% of the company's serial-numbered production but still a good sample. This list should get a Reilly owner close to the date his gun was numbered. It's more accurate from about 1855-1905 because of the number of existing guns. Caveats and Methodology - see above/below.
*Note: First Reilly pin-fire center-break gun found is 1856. The majority of Reilly center-break guns up to about 1873 were pin-fires, often converted to center-fire. After 1874 "pin-fire/center-fire" designation is no longer used as center-fire became the norm.
Year. . . . . . . . . . . .Serial Numbers. . . . . . . . . .yearly production
. . . Black-Main Chronology; Blue - JC “7000” series. . . . . .*Marker footnotes. **Sanity checks
outlier SN's. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Various known patents on SN'd extant guns
1828: . . 001 - . .050 - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50. .*1
1829: . . 051 - . .180. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .130
….162 - J.C. Reilly, Holborn Bars, London. 14 bore. Shotgun; percussion, single-barreled muzzle-loader (Henry Nock Patent breech)
….176 - J.C. Reilly, Holborn Bars, London. .50cal. Pistols; Pair of percussion dueling pistols (Buffum)
1830: . . 181 - . .320. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .130
...254 - J.C. Reilly? (no address mentioned). Percussion pistol per Terry Weiland article.
1831: . . 321 - . .460. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .140
1832: . . 461 - . .600. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .140
1833: . . 601 - . .750. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .150
1834: . . 751 - . .900. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150
..xxxx - J.C. Reilly, Holborn Bars, London. 14bore. Sporting gun. Single barrel, muzzle loader. "highly figured stock" (Picture)
..xxxx - J.C. Reilly, Holborn Bars, London. .45 Cal. Pistol, 14cm long muzzle loading, steel barrel, percussion pocket
1835: . . 901 - .1060. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 180. .*2. 1024
..xxxx - Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London. 50cal. Pistol; Percussion single-steel barrel muzzle loader
..1024 - Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London. 8.5mm. Pistol; hammer gun, steel barrel, pocket pistol (1st SN's gun with High Holborn on the rib)
1836: ..1061 - .1240. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 180
..1174 - J.C. Reilly (no address). 8 bore. Fowling piece; Percussion single shot, single barrel, muzzle loader.
1837: ..1241 - .1420. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 180
..1292 - Reilly, London, 120 bore, Pistol; steel barrel, percussion miniature pocket pistol. (Last numbered pistol)
1838: ..1421 - .1600. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 180
1839: ..1601 - .1810. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 210
1840: ..1811 - .2040. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 230
..1869 - (unknown) 10 ga. Shotgun; SxS; hammer gun, muzzle loader (Buffum)
1841: ..2041 - .2270. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 230
1842: ..2271 - .2500. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 230
1843: ..2501 - .2730. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 230
1844: ..2731 - .2960. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 230
..4573 (Outlier)- J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London. Single barrel, 6 bore waterfowler. Muzzle loader, hammer gun. ("7" bore size stamp)(Buffum)
1845: ..2961 - .3180. + 7000 - 7020. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 240
..xxxx - J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London. 10 bore. Shotgun; SxS; hammer gun, Muzzle loader "highly figured stock" (pic available)
1846: ..3181 - .3330. + 7020 - 7130. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 230. .*3. 7023. ,*4. 3329
..xxxx - Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London. 10 bore? Shotgun; SxS; hammer gun, Muzzle loader.
..7023 - J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London. 11bore. Shotgun SxS. Muzzle Loader, hammer gun. (1st JC 7000 series but with Holborn still on the rib)
..3329 -Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holburn, London. 10 ga/.58 cal; Shotgun; SxS; hammer gun, Muzzle loader. (Nock patent breech)(Last SN at High Holborn).
1847: ..3331 - .3350. + 7131 - 7230. + 8350 - 8480 - . . . . .250. .*5. 8378. .*6. 7201. .**1. 7201
..5512 (outlier) - Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holborn now 502 Oxford Street; 16 bore SxS Shotgun. Hammergun, Muzzle loader. 16 Bore size stamp (Argo44)
..8378? - J.C. Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London (label - “removed from Holborn”); 10 bore; Shotgun SxS; hammer gun, muzzle loader. (First New Oxford 8400 series)
..8463 - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London (label-"J.C. Reilly, removed from Holborn"); .390 cal. SxS Rifle; 5 groove rifling, muzzle loader.
..84xx - Reilly, 502 Oxford Street, London; 6 Bore; Shotgun, single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader.
..7201 - Joseph Charles Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London; (label - "Removed from Holborn") .577 cal; Rifle, Single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader. (1st JC 7000 series with Oxford St.rib)
1848: ..8481 - .8640. + 7231 - 7330. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 260
..8578? - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 6 bore single barrel, fowling gun, hammer gun, muzzle loader.
1849: ..8641 - .8800. + 7331 - 7440. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 260
..8645 - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 16 bore, double-rifle, SxS muzzle loader.
1850: ..8801 - .8960. + 7441 - 7540. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 260
1851: ..8961 - .9130. + 7541 - 7640. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 260
1852: ..9131 - .9300. + 7641 - 7740. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 270
1853: ..9301 - .9490. + 7741 - 7830. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 280
..7801 - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 28 bore; Walking cane gun.
..7802 - J.C. Reilly, New Oxford St., London; 6 bore, Single Barrel, muzzle loader, hammer wildfowl gun
1854: ..9491 - .9680. + 7831 - 7930. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 290
..7869 - J.C. Reilly, New Oxford St. London; 12 ga; Shotgun; SxS; hammer gun, muzzle loader (Buffum)(SXS40)12 bore stamp.
..2008 outlier - Joseph Charles Reilly, New Oxford Street, London. 14 bore. Shotgun SxS; muzzle loader hammer gun. 14 bore stamp.
1855: ..9681 - .9880. + 7931 - 8030. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 290
..8025 - Reilly, New Oxford St. London; 13 bore, single-barrel Rifle; hammer gun, muzzle loader (Buffum). (marked Veni, Vidi, Vici)
1856: ..9881- 10170. + 8021 - 8120. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 390. . . . .**2. Overdone by orders after Paris. .#3. 10064
..3514 outlier - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 13bore. Shotgun SxS; muzzle loader, hammer gun (1855-59 case label)13 bore stamp.
..8052 - Reilly, New Oxford St., London. 20 bore. single-barrel Rifle. Hammer gun, muzzle loader. (marked Veni, Vidi, Vici) Guns for Sale at GunsInternational.com
10054 - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 15 bore, SxS Rifle, pin-fire, Single-bite, Lang-Lefaucheux forward U-L. 1st SN'd extant center-break gun
1857: 10171 - 10510. + 8121 - 8200. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 410. .*7. 8186
10315 - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 6bore. Shotgun; single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader.
10354 - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London; .400 cal. Rifle; SxS original muzzle loader, now double breech loader. (conversion 1895-1904 by John Fry-new receiver, U-L, hammers, stock.)
..8186 - Reilly, New Oxford St., London. .650 (Minie ball). single-barrel Rifle. hammer gun, muzzle loader. (marked Veni, Vidi, Vici) (Last JC made gun)
1858: 10511 - 10930. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 420. . . . .**4. 10655. .**5. 10782. .**6. 10811
10619 - Reilly, New Oxford St., London; .380 cal; Rifle, single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader, “Park Rifle”
10621 - Reilly, London; .376 cal. Rifle; Single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader.
10641 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; 12 ga. SxS; center break, pin-fire, single-bite under-lever under forearm, hammer gun; Lefaucheux/Lang system (Birmingham proofs on barrel)
10655 - E.M. Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London; 12 ga. SxS; center break, pin-fire, single-bite under-lever under forearm, hammer gun; Lefaucheux/lang system (New Zealand)
10670 - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London; ?? Cal. Rifle; SxS; hammer gun, muzzle loader.
10782 - Reilly, New Oxford St. London. .577 cal; Rifle; single barrel, breech loader, hammer gun, Frederic Prince patent (1855). (1st Prince patent)
10811 - Reilly & Co., Oxford Street., London. .25 bore (sic) (probably .577), single barrel breech-loader hammer gun, Frederic Prince Patent (1st use of "Oxford St." and "Reilly & Co.")
1859: 10931 - 11340. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430. .*8. 10811. .*9. 11227. .**7. 11227
11227 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford St., London; .577 cal. Rifle; Enfield, 3 band, hammer gun, muzzle loader 1st extant SN gun with "E.M. Reilly & Co." on the rib
1860: 11341 - 11770. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430. . . . .**8. 11716
11419 - Reilly, 315 & 502 Oxford Street, London; .577 cal Rifle; Enfield, 2 band, hammer gun, muzzle loader. (1st SN'd long gun with "315" on a gun rib)
11645 - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 100 bore; Rifle, single barrel, breech loader, Frederic Prince patent
11651 - E.M. Reilly, Oxford St., London. .577 cal; Enfield type, hammer gun, muzzle loader converted to Snider breech loader by Reilly (name/address on side plate).
11xxx - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street London (Reilly on case); 11mm. 4 barrel shotgun, hammer gun, muzzle loader
11716 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; .577 Enfield rifle. muzzle loader, volunteer rifles. Presented as a prize Christmas 1860
1861: 11771 - 12210. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430
11820 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (Address not mentioned); 12 gauge, Shotgun SxS; hammer gun, muzzle loader, steel barrels?
11937 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford St., London; 4 bore, Shotgun single barrel; U-L, non-rebounding hammer gun (original muzzle loader, converted to center-break/center-fire by J. Squires)
12069 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 315 & 502 Oxford Street, London; .451 cal. Rifle; hammer gun, muzzle loader.
12073 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 315 & 502 Oxford Street, London; .451 cal. Rifle: hammer gun, muzzle loader; Sutherland rifle target sight
12088 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not legible); .451 cal. Rifle; hammer gun, muzzle loader.
1862: 12211 - 12740. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430. . . . .**9. 12532
12251 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford St., London; SxS Cape rifle .25 bore/.500; hammer gun, muzzle loader.
12532 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street, London; 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. gilded hammer gun, muzzle loader. London Exposition gun mentioned in several articles
1863: 12741 - 13170. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430
12861 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street., London; 12 bore, Shotgun SxS. hammer gun, muzzle Loader.
12855 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (Address not mentioned); 14 bore, shotgun SxS. hammer gun; muzzle Loader.
12920 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street., London; 14 bore Shotgun SxS. hammer gun, muzzle loader;
(1)3007 outlier? - E.M. Reilly & Co., 315 Oxford Street, London; 16 bore, SxS; pin-fire, under-lever, hammer-gun (the "1" is hypothetical)
13033 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; 20 bore; Shotgun SxS; pin-fire, Jones under-lever (U-L), hammer gun (Buffum)
13081 - E.M. Reilly & Co. (Address not mentioned); 14 bore SxS shotgun, U-L, non-rebounding hammer gun.
13132 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford St., London. 40 bore (.50) SxS Percussion breech-loading Rifle, "Terry’s patent:
13165 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; .451 military target rifle; hammer gun, muzzle-Loader. 5 groove rifling.
1864: 13171 - 13600. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430. . . . .**10. 13333
13194 - E.M. Reilly & Co., London. 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. pin-fire, back action, hammer gun (parts only)
13224 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (sleeved barrels). 12 ba. Shotgun SxS. pin-fire (converted), U-L, back-action hammer gun.
13333 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford St., London; .577 cal. Rifle; single barrel, breech loader, hammer gun, Gun 23 of Green Bros 1862 patent, Reilly manufacture
13578 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 bore SxS shotgun, hammer gun, muzzle-loader.
13580 - (name/address not mentioned). 8 bore, shotgun, single barrel, pin-fire, U-L hammer gun. (Rudyard)
13590 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street, London. 10 bore; Rifle SxS; hammer gun, muzzle loader.
13599 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street, London. 12 bore; Rifle SxS; 2 groove double express, hammer gun, muzzle loader.
1865: 13601 - 14030. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430
13602 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (rib relaid in India), 8 bore, Double Rifle; muzzle loader (numbered 296 on the replaced trigger guard - Indian gun)
13688 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; 20 bore; Shotgun single barrel (originally a rifle); center-fire, U-L, hammer gun. Joseph Brazier action; first extant center-break, center-fire gun (rifle)
13691 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned); 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. U-L, hammer gun, full scroll work. (pin-fire or center-fire not mentioned)
13816 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). Shotgun SxS. 12 ga. pin-fire, U-L, hammer gun.
13884 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned); .577 single barrel breech loading Green Bros Patent rifle. Gun 159 of Green Bros 1862 patent
 

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Dakota459 said:
My vote goes for 1899 to include the muzzleloading target rifles.
Click to expand...
But that could include 1885 7.5-55 Swiss martini target rifles. And a whole bag of other modern type guns. We could say only Damascus barrels Or antique muzzle loaders. We cannot say BP only as cartridge double rifles came out around 1885. I would prefer to dump antique and

substitute “ old interesting guns”

I had a 6 month passion for the Swiss and bought two. Just wall hangers but interesting.

Ha ha it’s a great forum full of lovely people do whatever makes us all happy. 1850 or
1800 either makes me happy
 

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Notchy Bob said:
As my friends have pointed out, we have established forum rules. You can find them right here: Forum Rules

Existing rules still apply:

1: The focus of this site is "Traditional Muzzleloading"; The history of muzzleloading weapons and battles, up to and including the American Civil War. (From the inception of firearms through 1865)

-and-

7: We do not discuss modern (in-line) muzzleloading firearms.
Early historic breech loading guns that do not use primed metallic or semi-metallic cartridges and meet the requirements of rule #1 are permitted for discussion.
See special rules at the bottom for posts about breech loading firearms.

8: Although not muzzleloaders, we do allow discussions of percussion revolvers.

9: We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets. Smoothbores using plastic wads and steel shot are an exception to this rule.

10: We do not discuss conversion cylinders or anything to do with metal cartridges.



The "Special Rules" mentioned in #7 are these:

POSTS FOR BREECH LOADING GUNS:

Ӣ The firearm must have been made prior to 1865. Replicas of these guns are also acceptable.

Ӣ The firearm must utilize an ignition system which is separate from any form or type of cartridge that may have been used to seal the breech or load the powder or the projectile.
The "cartridge" may incorporate a pan or similar device to hold priming powder.

Ӣ Vent ignited guns, Matchlocks, Wheel-locks, any form of Flintlock and its predecessors, Percussion cap and its predecessors are all acceptable for discussion.

Ӣ Discussion of needle guns, pinfire, rim fire, center fire and any similar cartridges containing priming devices or the firearms that use them is not permitted.

Ӣ Posts may be made in a suitable section such as, smoothbore, cannon, handgun, flintlock rifle or percussion rifle, based on the type of gun.
Posts in the General Muzzleloading section is recommended.

_________________

A new forum, dedicated to antique muzzleloaders, is not intended to "open up" or relax any of the existing rules. The only salient change I can see to the existing rules would be deletion of the statement about replicas. A new "Antiques" forum would be for the folks who would like to present, view, or discuss old, original muzzleloaders without needing to wade through posts about modern production and reproduction guns. Respectfully, the topic of breechloaders did not need to be introduced into our current discussion... They are already prohibited. Any discussion of breechloaders would be a non-starter anywhere on the Muzzleloading Forum, and a new section dedicated to antiques would not change that. If a gun is allowed on the Muzzleloading Forum now, and it is a genuine antique from 1865 or earlier, it would be allowed in the "Antiques" section. If a gun is not allowed on the Muzzleloading Forum now, it would not be allowed in the "Antiques" section regardless of its age. If there is any question about a gun's appropriateness for an Antiques forum, it can still be posted and discussed elsewhere on the board (e.g. Flintlock Rifles, Percussion Rifles, General Muzzleloading, etc.)

The moderators on this forum have a big job, and they do it well. However, they are realistic, and I don't necessarily see them as hair-splitters. As an example, forum rule #3 says Posts must be in English. I've seen several posts written in other languages, usually in the "New Member" section. Nobody has a conniption about it. If somebody wants to post about a gun that is obviously an antique and meets all of the other criteria, but its actual date of manufacture is not known, I would have no problem with seeing it on the antiques forum.

I hope we can get the new Antiques forum off the table and online soon, and start seeing some more of those old-timers coming out of the cabinets!

Respectfully,

Notchy Bob
Click to expand...
That was interesting thanks for publishing it. So why do we even need “antiques”. Interesting though
 

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