Antique Rifle Questions
- Thread starter Joshua Hopkins
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
hanshi
Cannon
That's a grand old rifle and deserves it's retirement without accruing any more injuries. Replicas are readily available and they are ready to shoot as is. Safety is not the only issue IMHO. Anything you do to the rifle will certainly decrease what value it may have as a collectable artifact. On the wall you will be able to enjoy it every day.
They are both "percussion caps" Typical sizes are 10 and 11 for most percussion arms. Musket caps are bigger and hold more powder so they burn hotter. It's easy to see the difference because the musket caps have 4 strips flaring out from cap itself, looking almost like a top hat. It was an answer many years ago to a problem some folks were having with mis-fires. The hotter flash from the musket cap helped. Some of the problems were with poor lock design and a hotter spark helped compensate. I haven't used percussion cap arms since I took up flinlocks back in about 2002 or so. I have a Pedersoli Kentucky Pistol that I bought in 1969 and there were no "musket caps" in the stores back then. I believe they came out with them much later, but could be mistaken. As long as I cleaned my pistol well each day I used it, I didn't have a mis-fire problem using the #11 caps with it.
DuncNZ
54 Cal.
It is not a Hawken or even Hawken style . It looks like a Henry E Leman trade rifle , they had a patch box ,pewter fore end cap , trigger guard and usually a lock with a squared off tail just like your rifle . Lemans were/are much more representative of the heavy Plains rifle used by both trappers and Indians in the RMFT era than the Hawken ,going by rifles surrendered or captured from Indians easily 10 times more common . Can you make out the name on the lock plate? Leman made a variety of rifles but his trade rifles were made to a more common style , very like yours . A great find , I wouldn't shoot it , I'd buy a modern copy , there are many about . Do some Googling
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
user 49399
54 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2020
- Messages
- 1,583
- Reaction score
- 2,727
Believe it or not, the most accurate and one of the least expensive muzzleloaders in my collection is a Traditions Kentucky percussion rifle in .50 caliber. It’s a dandy. I have others that cost more like my Chambers .62 caliber, flintlock smooth rifle. The Chambers is my favorite and soon to be the most accurate with a little more practice, but I digress.
Track Of The Wolf, Dixie Gunworks, The Log Cabin Shop are just a few good places to find muzzleloaders. Perhaps other members on here can point you to some more that I’m not familiar with.
Last edited:
Joshua,
I think you are getting in touch with the right people. That's the way to go!
The photos of the muzzle of your rifle appear to show very strong rifling. You will want to get a knowledgeable person to look the rifle over, as you are clearly planning to do, but once it is determined to be safe to shoot, and necessary repairs completed, you may very well have a good shooter.
Some people categorically believe all antique guns should be retired. I am not one of them. In my opinion, the first thing is to make sure the gun is safe and functional. Once that is determined, and necessary repairs are properly made, I think antiques that are shootable can and possibly should be shot. I have seen a bunch of old guns that became rusty and corroded, with insect damage to the wood, while in storage. In contrast, old guns that are frequently and properly handled and properly loaded and cleaned are often kept in excellent condition. Obviously, damage can occur in the field if the gun is dropped, carried across a saddle, scraped against a rock or whatever, but that sort of thing doesn't need to happen in an occasional trip to the range. Lots of our forum members shoot originals.
Please let us know what the expert tells you after examining your rifle.
Best of luck to you!
Notchy Bob
I think you are getting in touch with the right people. That's the way to go!
The photos of the muzzle of your rifle appear to show very strong rifling. You will want to get a knowledgeable person to look the rifle over, as you are clearly planning to do, but once it is determined to be safe to shoot, and necessary repairs completed, you may very well have a good shooter.
Some people categorically believe all antique guns should be retired. I am not one of them. In my opinion, the first thing is to make sure the gun is safe and functional. Once that is determined, and necessary repairs are properly made, I think antiques that are shootable can and possibly should be shot. I have seen a bunch of old guns that became rusty and corroded, with insect damage to the wood, while in storage. In contrast, old guns that are frequently and properly handled and properly loaded and cleaned are often kept in excellent condition. Obviously, damage can occur in the field if the gun is dropped, carried across a saddle, scraped against a rock or whatever, but that sort of thing doesn't need to happen in an occasional trip to the range. Lots of our forum members shoot originals.
Please let us know what the expert tells you after examining your rifle.
Best of luck to you!
Notchy Bob
Dialcannon
36 Cl.
A lot of wisdom on this thread. At 73 I am learning too. Like you Joshua I learned to respect my Elders. Now I am one!
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2020
- Messages
- 7,491
- Reaction score
- 21,004
- Location
- On the Border in Idaho looking at BC
One option you have is to have a new stock made and use the original hardware. that would keep the stock for its historical value and allow you the pleasure of shooting your gem.
that bore looks like some loving attention would have it talking just fine. even with pitting some old rifles shoot amazingly well.
i have a CVA Mountain rifle that looks like a Chicago sewer. fifty yards it will have the holes touching. with someone else shooting it.
that bore looks like some loving attention would have it talking just fine. even with pitting some old rifles shoot amazingly well.
i have a CVA Mountain rifle that looks like a Chicago sewer. fifty yards it will have the holes touching. with someone else shooting it.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2005
- Messages
- 7,093
- Reaction score
- 5,384
Like a lot of people over here in UK, I shoot an original rifle or three. This one was made around 1860 by Robert Taylor Pritchett - of Pritchett bullet fame. It's a .577cal Volunteer rifle based on an earlier model of the service rifle - a Pattern 51, if I'm not mistaken. It is a lot more slender and wieldy than its P53 successor Short rifle, and weighs in at a pound lighter, too. It is very 'lively' to shoot, with the service load of 68.5gr of Swiss and that nice big chunky bullet.
The rifle show signs of much use, but the bore is immaculate from end to end - this is how it shoots - 10 shots at 100m [we had to re-calibrate our range to meters when we rebuilt it back on '12 so that the legislation/documentation matched...]
However, this rifle was professionally examined before I bought it by the Birmingham Proof House, and assessed as safe to shoot. Or else, lovely though it is, it would have been on a wall somewhere - not mine, though, as all my guns have to be shootable.
The rifle show signs of much use, but the bore is immaculate from end to end - this is how it shoots - 10 shots at 100m [we had to re-calibrate our range to meters when we rebuilt it back on '12 so that the legislation/documentation matched...]
However, this rifle was professionally examined before I bought it by the Birmingham Proof House, and assessed as safe to shoot. Or else, lovely though it is, it would have been on a wall somewhere - not mine, though, as all my guns have to be shootable.
Last edited:
manbat
36 Cl.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2022
- Messages
- 97
- Reaction score
- 259
Lots of good sage and well-repeated advice is offered, but I suggest you also factor in the other elements that apply here. Whatever you do with your rifle, consider the value equation first. Repairing an antique weapon to a level that minimally impacts value is very costly and usually creates a shooter that does not have its pre-repair value - which is usually much less than what non-buyers suggest it is for an unshootable firearm.
First, research what similar arms in that condition are selling for and decide how much it's worth to you to bring it up to a safe use point. Verify that the cost plus what you paid is worth it when considering other options to purchase and enjoy. Nothing wrong with spending more than its value if it is what you want. I have many historical and replica weapons, and shooting a real of the time firearm has intrinsic value and provides me with an experience that I enjoy immensely. Some I've overpaid for because they are what I wanted.
Talking to all the folks you've been directed to doesn't cost anything, but once you hand it over for repair, the dollars start flowing. If the cost doesn't compute for you, sell it to someone that is happy just to fondle and look at guns hanging on the wall and buy something historic you know you can shoot as soon as you take possession. Good luck, and enjoy your journey.
First, research what similar arms in that condition are selling for and decide how much it's worth to you to bring it up to a safe use point. Verify that the cost plus what you paid is worth it when considering other options to purchase and enjoy. Nothing wrong with spending more than its value if it is what you want. I have many historical and replica weapons, and shooting a real of the time firearm has intrinsic value and provides me with an experience that I enjoy immensely. Some I've overpaid for because they are what I wanted.
Talking to all the folks you've been directed to doesn't cost anything, but once you hand it over for repair, the dollars start flowing. If the cost doesn't compute for you, sell it to someone that is happy just to fondle and look at guns hanging on the wall and buy something historic you know you can shoot as soon as you take possession. Good luck, and enjoy your journey.
Josh, just above Boston.
PM sent, as I may go to Kittery on WED night the 8th. See the message or ‘private converstation’ I started with you.
Last edited:
Not sure where you are in Maine. Search Black Powder clubs, I know there are many up there. Visit, make friends and you’ll learn much about the gun. I can’t make judgments looking at pictures, but some of my guns are old, and I do shoot them.
kansas_volunteer
45 Cal.
The rifle definitely is not a Hawken, but I would call it Ohio or Midwestern style. If you go to the Association of Ohio Longrifle Collectors web site and read through their pdf newsletters you will see rifles that come close to matching yours.
Rifles under $400 are frequently listed in the for sale section of this forum. A decent T/C or Invest Arms Hawken ought to suit you well.
Your bore is an odd size. You'll probably need a custom mould, which could be expensive. The barrel may need to be bored out and re-rifled, the drum and nipple could needing lots of fixing. All this might run more than $400.
The rifle you linked to in post 35 is hideously ugly and nothing to be proud of. It is a very poor modern Poor Boy. Do look for something nicer.
Rifles under $400 are frequently listed in the for sale section of this forum. A decent T/C or Invest Arms Hawken ought to suit you well.
Your bore is an odd size. You'll probably need a custom mould, which could be expensive. The barrel may need to be bored out and re-rifled, the drum and nipple could needing lots of fixing. All this might run more than $400.
The rifle you linked to in post 35 is hideously ugly and nothing to be proud of. It is a very poor modern Poor Boy. Do look for something nicer.
I'm leaning on the side of those advising not to shoot it, especially with that crack and the condition of the nipple. I have the same experience with two "Hawken" style rifles I bought on a recent auction. Both are unsafe at any speed. My loss, but you have had some good advise here.
Joshua Hopkins
32 Cal
I'd like to thank everybody for their advice, research, and offers on this old gun! After taking it to a professional, it is confirmed not safe to shoot. It is now serving as an excellent wall piece and will be well cared for. I managed to pick up a perfectly good reproduction Hawken rifle in .54 cal. I'm taking it shooting this weekend; any idea what to use for powder measures? I already have a powder dispensing flask, but I need something to measure the grains per shot.
Thanks a bunch guys, looking forward to more great interactions with the Muzzleloading community!
Thanks a bunch guys, looking forward to more great interactions with the Muzzleloading community!
looks like more of an Ohio rifle to me, I've never seen a Hawken Bro's rifle with a drum.
I don't shoot antiques from that era. They really didn't know much about making steel back then and forge-welded/Damascus barrels have their own hazards. The gun might have been quite safe when it was new, but a century or more of exposure to black powder residue, moisture, possibly someone loading it with Red Dot... that takes it's toll on a device that was likely never intended to last a century.
Cracked stocks CAN be repaired. I regularly shoot a T/C Hawken .45 with an epoxy repaired crack that went right through the lock channel. This gun probably is not a good candidate for that kind of repair though.
Even if you get a good gunsmith who knows what he is doing to look at it, he can only give you his opinion and will almost certainly not offer any sort of guarantee.
Put it on a wall above the fireplace. Invent a story to go with it for long cold evenings with the grandchildren. If you will give me some family information I will even write you one... it could even have scorcery and/or aliens in it.
Cracked stocks CAN be repaired. I regularly shoot a T/C Hawken .45 with an epoxy repaired crack that went right through the lock channel. This gun probably is not a good candidate for that kind of repair though.
Even if you get a good gunsmith who knows what he is doing to look at it, he can only give you his opinion and will almost certainly not offer any sort of guarantee.
Put it on a wall above the fireplace. Invent a story to go with it for long cold evenings with the grandchildren. If you will give me some family information I will even write you one... it could even have scorcery and/or aliens in it.
