Antique Rifle Questions

[user 49399]

Joshua,

Just based on the pictures, that gun appears to need some work by an actual, competent gunsmith. It may or may not be okay to shoot. I would suggest buying a modern replica as a first gun.

It would be great if you could find some black powder shooters in your area who can help you get started. I would steer clear of gun store clerks and pawn shop owners. Try to find some folks who actually shoot traditional muzzleloaders.

Ask as many questions here as you need to. There are many knowledgeable folks on this forum. The search function is your friend.

Also, check out beginner muzzleloader videos on YouTube by Black Powder Maniac Shooter, Black Powder TV (Bob McBride) and Duelist1954.

Banjoman

 

[The Crisco Kid]

In addition to all the above good advise, if you really have to see it go bang load it with 10 or 15 grains of black powder with a wad of something on top of that, tie it to an old tire and fire it with a long string tied to the trigger. Then give it a good cleaning and decide what to do.

If you live in town, when the cops arrive tell them that you heard the noise too and it sounded like it came from "over there somewhere". At least this worked for me once.

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

I’m not aware of any but others might. But as said, The Log Cabin Shop, Track of the Wolf, and probably Dixie Gun Works have gunsmiths on staff that know the old rifles.

Ah, unfortunately those are all very far away from me! I have found there's a small home owned shop not a half hour from me who might be able to give me some advice, but I think I may just have to settle for using it as a wallhanger. Sad, but maybe a decade or so down the line I'll have the courage and know-how to get it working! On that note, any advice for good reproductions dealers? After putting the effort into learning about black powder shooting I really don't want to just turn back!

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

Joshua,

Just based on the pictures, that gun appears to need some work by an actual, competent gunsmith. It may or may not be okay to shoot. I would suggest buying a modern replica as a first gun.

It would be great if you could find some black powder shooters in your area who can help you get started. I would steer clear of gun store clerks and pawn shop owners. Try to find some folks who actually shoot traditional muzzleloaders.

Ask as many questions here as you need to. There are many knowledgeable folks on this forum. The search function is your friend.

Also, check out beginner muzzleloader videos on YouTube by Black Powder Maniac Shooter, Black Powder TV (Bob McBride) and Duelist1954.

Banjoman

Thanks for the solid advice! Those channels were some of the first I found and have me more excited than ever to start shooting, but perhaps not on this old rifle. There have to be groups near me if I look hard enough, New England is the heart of the Revolution for God's sake. Any advice for reproduction dealers if it turns out my rifle isn't up to snuff?

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

@Joshua Hopkins, based on observations from forum members that I respect from years of following their threads, I believe it would be much too large of a risk to use this rifle as the first rifle for you to experience the thrill of shooting traditional muzzle loading rifles. If you must shoot it, follow @rich pierce's plan, use a #11 cap, which is probably the cap that would fit your nipple.

I suggest that you follow the example set by @ord sgt and get a modern replica and learn using it.

I'm very happy to have ask such an informative bunch; it would have been a shame if I broke the rifle or worse. By your uniform, dare I ask if you have any recommendations for finding a British reproduction rifle? I'm a kiltmaker, bagpiper, and Broadsword fencer, so I'd love something to match the era if I decided to add a rifle to my period wear!

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

i for one would be proud to own that rifle! But like others here have advised either get it checked out by a competent gunsmith, or take pleasure in displaying it.
you might think of it as an old race horse, a pleasure to look at but having earned its retirement, put out to pasture.
if you can possible post some pictures of the bore we would have more informed advise.
you state that the ramrod goes completely into the barrel. That in itself doesn't signify a unloaded gun. it depends on the length of the rod.
take the rod and lay it on top of the barrel with one end even to the muzzle. note where the other end lays in relation to the drum. if it is even then the bore is clear. it is rather important that it is clear before doing more with it than looking at it and drooling.
sorry, i am projecting a little, because these old guns always make me drool.

As requested, here are some pictures of the bore! I am not really sure what to make of it, it doesn't look like it's falling apart to me? Again, I know very little about all this so I'm loving the advice and knowledge.

 

[hawkeye2]

Do you know of any groups in the Maine/Massachusetts area that might be able to expertly examine it

There are a lot of members here from Maine and I would suggest you look up Nit Wit here and send him a PM (conversation). He is a member of a very active group in central Maine and I'm willing to bet he can help. BTW where are you in Maine?

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Joshua Hopkins ,

Welcome to the Muzzleloading Forum!

You have a nice old rifle. You have been offered a lot of good advice, but I really think the best thing to do is to find a mentor. You mentioned earlier that you are in New England (Massachusetts? Maine?). The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA) has "Field Reps" all over the country. Please go to this link to find the Field Rep closest to you, and give him a call: NMLRA Field Rep Directory

Tell him about your new rifle, and ask for some help getting started. He may direct you to a local club. There are several NMLRA affiliated charter clubs in New England, and almost any real blackpowder shooter will gladly help a new person get started. Look for a nearby charter club in this directory, and get in touch: NMLRA Charter Club Directory

The NMLRA also publishes a book that covers the basics of muzzleloading. A lot of good information for twelve bucks! How-To Muzzleloading Guide

It may be possible to get started on your own, but I would strongly recommend that you find a mentor, preferably someone who is familiar with antique muzzleloaders and has the ability to examine and evaluate your rifle. People here have pointed out some concerns... the battered nipple, the cracked stock... but we really can't say for sure if it is safe to shoot without actually examining the rifle.

The best case scenario would be that only minor repairs and cleaning would be indicated. There is a lot of satisfaction in shooting an original.

Regarding your question about caps: Percussion caps used to come in quite a variety of sizes, and nipples were sized accordingly. Now, we have basically three sizes of caps: #10 is primarily for revolvers, #11 for rifles and shotguns, and musket caps for musket-sized nipples. What needs to be done right after confirming that your rifle is safe is to determine the thread diameter and pitch of your nipple. The most common size for sporting rifles is 1/4-28, but you won't know for sure until you check. New nipples with the most common thread sizes are typically intended for #11 caps, although musket cap sized nipples with sporting rifle sized threads are available in some sizes. You best bet would be to start looking for some #11 caps and some real black powder. Don't shoot your rifle until it has been pronounced safe, but there is nothing wrong with getting some ammo ahead of time, so you'll have it when you get a shootable gun.

By all means, check in with us again and let us know if you locate a mentor, and if your rifle is determined to be safe. You have friends here who want to get you going in the right direction.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

@Joshua Hopkins ,

Welcome to the Muzzleloading Forum!

You have a nice old rifle. You have been offered a lot of good advice, but I really think the best thing to do is to find a mentor. You mentioned earlier that you are in New England (Massachusetts? Maine?). The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA) has "Field Reps" all over the country. Please go to this link to find the Field Rep closest to you, and give him a call: NMLRA Field Rep Directory

Tell him about your new rifle, and ask for some help getting started. He may direct you to a local club. There are several NMLRA affiliated charter clubs in New England, and almost any real blackpowder shooter will gladly help a new person get started. Look for a nearby charter club in this directory, and get in touch: NMLRA Charter Club Directory

The NMLRA also publishes a book that covers the basics of muzzleloading. A lot of good information for twelve bucks! How-To Muzzleloading Guide

It may be possible to get started on your own, but I would strongly recommend that you find a mentor, preferably someone who is familiar with antique muzzleloaders and has the ability to examine and evaluate your rifle. People here have pointed out some concerns... the battered nipple, the cracked stock... but we really can't say for sure if it is safe to shoot without actually examining the rifle.

The best case scenario would be that only minor repairs and cleaning would be indicated. There is a lot of satisfaction in shooting an original.

Regarding your question about caps: Percussion caps used to come in quite a variety of sizes, and nipples were sized accordingly. Now, we have basically three sizes of caps: #10 is primarily for revolvers, #11 for rifles and shotguns, and musket caps for musket-sized nipples. What needs to be done right after confirming that your rifle is safe is to determine the thread diameter and pitch of your nipple. The most common size for sporting rifles is 1/4-28, but you won't know for sure until you check. New nipples with the most common thread sizes are typically intended for #11 caps, although musket cap sized nipples with sporting rifle sized threads are available in some sizes. You best bet would be to start looking for some #11 caps and some real black powder. Don't shoot your rifle until it has been pronounced safe, but there is nothing wrong with getting some ammo ahead of time, so you'll have it when you get a shootable gun.

By all means, check in with us again and let us know if you locate a mentor, and if your rifle is determined to be safe. You have friends here who want to get you going in the right dierction.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Bob,

Thank you so much for the advice; I've been up cleaning it out with Barristol turning white cloths completely rust brown! I plan to bring it to a local gentleman who claims to work on early flintlock/percussion antiques to get it appraised, but I may make a trip to the NMLRA chapter in Southwest Harbor. That's about a 4 hour drive for me, but it would be so worth it if I could get this old girl working or at least learn a thing or two about shooting. I have powder and ammo, but I will definitely need some caps soon. I'll be taking the information of both yourself and others and using it to the fullest extent.

What an eventful first day as a member of this forum, hopefully it's the start of a life long journey for me.

Thanks,

Joshua

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

@hawkeye2 I'm in York County, but I'm no stranger to travelling our state (I've been as far as Strong, ME for certain events). I'll look your guy up and see if there's a group in my backyard!

 

[sheriff john]

Josh ..the nipple would be my first concern. It's quite possible to tighten a nipple down to where it feels solid and, indeed be hard to remove but still have only a wee bit of threads holding it. Might last a hundred shots or not even one, but when it lets go...

Have a knowledgeable individual examine it in person. Welcome to the fun part of shooting, by the way. It is an addictive means to blow the kids' inheritance.

 

[Hermit Tim]

If it were me I would opt to buy a quality used rifle and learn the game before trying to get this one running right away. Tis a beautiful old gun, and I would love to see one like it hanging in my living room, so wouldn't want to risk damaging it or myself due to inexperience. Depending on your budget there are plenty of starter rifles to be had. Just this week I picked up a used CVA Frontier for $130.00. something like that can teach you all the ins and outs of our way of life. Then, at some point when you are a seasoned BP vet, figuring this heirloom piece out will be much easier. Just my two cents but I wish you the best on your black powder journey. And feel free to ask questions any time. Old guys know stuff.

 

[PastorB]

Beautiful rifle, but I would be very leery about actually attempting to fire it. Judging from the outside appearance, which is all I can do online, I can't imagine that there is any rifling left in that barrel. I shoot a lot of original antiques, and have handled many more, and in my estimation that rifle is most likely beyond restoring to shooting condition. Hang it on the wall and enjoy it for the piece of history it is. Aa far as actually shooting your first muzzleloader, I would be on the lookout for a good used Investarms Hawken, which have been sold under many names. While not an authentic copy of anything, they are very solid rifles, in my opinion a big step up over a CVA or Traditions, and they can still be found relatively cheap ($250-$300), at least in my area. When you do look at a rifle, a bore light that can be dropped down the barrel is an absolute must. No matter how good a rifle looks on the outside, a rusted or pitted bore is not something you want to tangle with as a new shooter.

 

[nit wit]

Drop a AAA battery down the bore and shine a flashlight on it. Then get back to us.
Nit Wit

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

Beautiful rifle, but I would be very leery about actually attempting to fire it. Judging from the outside appearance, which is all I can do online, I can't imagine that there is any rifling left in that barrel. I shoot a lot of original antiques, and have handled many more, and in my estimation that rifle is most likely beyond restoring to shooting condition. Hang it on the wall and enjoy it for the piece of history it is. Aa far as actually shooting your first muzzleloader, I would be on the lookout for a good used Investarms Hawken, which have been sold under many names. While not an authentic copy of anything, they are very solid rifles, in my opinion a big step up over a CVA or Traditions, and they can still be found relatively cheap ($250-$300), at least in my area. When you do look at a rifle, a bore light that can be dropped down the barrel is an absolute must. No matter how good a rifle looks on the outside, a rusted or pitted bore is not something you want to tangle with as a new shooter.

So used Investarms seem to be relative hard for me to find outside of Gun Broker, and most of those have admitted problems from the buyer/haven't been test fired. I'm not really looking to spend over $400 for another rifle (although I did get my antique at an excellent deal). Do you have any experience with this sort of rifle from Traditions? It looks pretty good for the price for a first shooting rifle.
https://www.midwayusa.com/ltd/product/?pid=829981

 

[French Colonial]

Usually I am in the "just shoot it" camp, however....

This particular gun has a very large crack across its bottom just below the lock that, from the size of the gap I "assume" goes completely from side to side meaning that the barrel and tang are pretty much all that's holding it together.

This is a candidate for a complete teardown with an eye toward stock repair and in the meantime a cheap $50.00 borescope from the internet for a bore inspection. If you are not confident that you can repair the stock properly, time to find someone who is.

 

[Eric Bye]

The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association is headquartered in Friendship, IN, but it has field representatives and members of the board of directors in many places around the country. David Delong of Round Pond, ME is both a field rep and a director. I don't know if you are anywhere near Round Pond, or whether David is available to inspect your old gun, but I think it's worth a try. He can be reached at 207-677-2351.

As for shooting your rifle, it appears from your photos that you would need a new nipple; the old one appears to be battered. A new nipple is not difficult to locate and purchase, as long as the threads are standard (commonly 1/4" x 28). Sometimes it's difficult to remove an old nipple that has been in place for generations; be sure to get competent help with this if necessary; otherwise you could damage the rifle.

You should check to make sure that the gun is not loaded. (In the old days many times people left a load inside the barrel - a dangerous practice. Insert the ramrod or other long dowel into the barrel as far as it will go. Mark the rod at the muzzle with a pencil and then lay the rod alongside the barrel with the pencil mark even with the muzzle. The end of the rod should reach to the nipple drum; if so, the barrel is not loaded.

Your old gun is handsome, and I understand the desire to shoot it. That may be feasible, but it depends on the condition of the barrel and related parts (breech plug, nipple drum and threads...) near the breech. Never use anything but bona fide black powder (available from the Maine Powder House [207-671-5580; www. mainepowderhouse.com]). If you ever shoot this old rifle you should use a light powder charge; I cannot be more specific because I don't have the benefit of inspecting the gun and don't even know the caliber or the condition of the bore. If the inside of the barrel is badly pitted or otherwise damaged the gun might not shoot accurately, and it would be a lengthy chore to clean it after shooting.

As others have already stated, if there is any doubt about the soundness of this gun, it's best to admire it and grant it the retirement it deserves. There are many modern-made guns available on the market for modest prices; they will shoot accurately and safely for years and years and you will not have to be concerned about damaging a nice antique.

Best of luck; write again if you have further questions.

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

Drop a AAA battery down the bore and shine a flashlight on it. Then get back to us.
Nit Wit

It's actually a .38 cal, a AAA doesn't fit down the barrel. I did try to get some pictures with a light shone down there, maybe that will help?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Do you know of any groups in the Maine/Massachusetts area that might be able to expertly examine it?

Josh:

Where down Maine are you? Jeff Miller at The Flintlock Forge over in Waldoboro should be able to help you out in regards to assessing the condition of that piece. He is a very exerienced blacksmith, gunsmith and artisan. Link = https://flintlockforge.weebly.com/about.html
In regards to shooting ... there are a few other Mainers on these boards, Nit Wit and Mayne1713, amongst them GREAT guys! I've sent along a Private Message to both to see if they can help you out. There is also a VERY active BP shooting group down Maine called the Ancient Ones and I strongly suggest you look them up.

I'm from Mass, but not too far from the NH border and if you're in southern Maine, I could always meet up with you at the Kittery Trading Post, or you're welcome to join me for a day of BP shooting down here at my ranges/clubs in Mass.Sometimes I shoot with my twin bro at the York Conty Club, but alas he has not taken the experience of real black powdah ...

I'd say, let's get you shooting BP now, even if with a loaner rifle or borrowing one from someone else, whilst that one gets checked out. Contact me as may be needed, cheers and good luck!

 

[Joshua Hopkins]

Josh:

Where down Maine are you? Jeff Miller at The Flintlock Forge over in Waldoboro should be able to help you out in regards to assessing the condition of that piece. He is a very exerienced blacksmith, gunsmith and artisan. Link = https://flintlockforge.weebly.com/about.html
In regards to shooting ... there are a few other Mainers on these boards, Nit Wit and Mayne1713, amongst them GREAT guys! I've sent along a Private Message to both to see if they can help you out. There is also a VERY active BP shooting group down Maine called the Ancient Ones and I strongly suggest you look them up.

I'm from Mass, but not too far from the NH border and if you're in southern Maine, I could always meet up with you at the Kittery Trading Post, or you're welcome to join me for a day of BP shooting down here at my ranges/clubs in Mass.Sometimes I shoot with my twin bro at the York Conty Club, but alas he has not taken the experience of real black powdah ...

I'd say, let's get you shooting BP now, even if with a loaner rifle or borrowing one from someone else, whilst that one gets checked out. Contact me as may be needed, cheers and good luck!

I'm in Eliot, about 10 minutes away from the Trading Post! I'm bringing the rifle to 6H Muzzleloaders and Trapping in Barrington NH, they have a great reputation as far as I understand and are accustomed to working on antiques. Waldoboro isn't impossible, I head to Oakland Bi-weekly so I could likely make a detour there sometime if it needs more work done.

I'd love to meet on your range or at the Trading Post, whatever works for you! Where abouts are you in Mass?