Antler buttons...

[satx78247]

I have NO doubt that EARLY, after the coming of Europeans to the Americas, that both Natives & "newcomers" used antler slices & pieces of horn for buttons AND (even later) persons who were TOO POOR to even buy buttons may have sometimes used pieces of antler in place of pewter, horn, lead, wood, etc. OR used a piece of horn, bone, wood or antler when there was no convenient source of other buttons.

yours, satx

 

[George]

A bit off topic in a discussion of buttons proper for a haversack, but maybe of interest... the various types of buttons mentioned in my collection of items from 18th-century newspapers:

mohair buttons
frosted buttons
brass hollow buttons
flowered buttons
brass buttons
large metal buttons
blue horn buttons
metal buttons
white metal work buttons
flat pewter buttons
flat metal buttons
stone sleeve buttons
sleeve buttons
death head buttons
wooden buttons
patterned sleeve buttons
lacquered buttons
bone buttons
box bottomed buttons
death head mohair buttons
white horn buttons
gold basket buttons
buttons covered with brownish cloth
flat silver buttons
the moulds covered with shalloon
broad metal buttons
yellow carved metal buttons
gilt buttons
yellow buttons
block tin buttons
pewter buttons
blue velvet covered buttons
kersey covered buttons
leather buttons
horn buttons
sliver sleeve buttons
white pearl buttons
black buttons
sarge red buttons, seemingly glass
plain silver buttons
hard metal flat buttons
curled brass buttons with wooden moulds
brass link buttons
crystal stone sleeve buttons
gold sleeve buttons
lead buttons

FYI, sleeve buttons are pairs of buttons linked together, similar to cuff links, and very commonly used for shirt sleeves in all classes in the 18th century.

And here's an 18th-century haversack from the Tom Wnuck collection, described as green linen. Unfortunately, it doesn't show the buttons, but they were obviously large ones, judging by the buttonholes.




Spence

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I have NO doubt that EARLY, after the coming of Europeans to the Americas, that both Natives & "newcomers" used antler slices & pieces of horn for buttons AND (even later) persons who were TOO POOR to even buy buttons may have sometimes used pieces of antler in place of pewter, horn, lead, wood, etc. OR used a piece of horn, bone, wood or antler when there was no convenient source of other buttons.

yours, satx

Any examples or other documentation?

 

[satx78247]

THANKS for asking.

Right in your home state, The Museum of Frontier Life at 1290 Richmond Ave, Staunton, VA 24401 has at least one example of a "poor boy's outfit" that has CRUDE buttons that look like deer antler "slices".
ALSO
The Republic of the Rio Grande Museum at 1005 Zaragoza St, Laredo, TX 78042 has the remains of an early (I think linen) shirt with similarly crude buttons.

yours, satx

 

[tenngun]

You could well be right, after all its just a cut in an antler. If they were "poor boy" that would limit their survival. I've never seen any but any one could make them. I have moved away from them myself since buttons were so avalible, but I don't regaurd others not being hc pc because of them.

 

[Stophel]

The 18th century was awash in buttons. Buttons of all kinds, everywhere. Some were expensive, of course, but others were super cheap. They were not hard to come by.

If I were too destitute to buy buttons (but had money for fabric to make a haversack... :haha: ) I think I would make buttons of leather. No special tools required. A pair of scissors (even a knife) and a big awl to punch two holes. I've seen a leather belt bag with a leather button on it, and now I see they are in Spence's list too!

 

[necchi]

persons who were TOO POOR to even buy buttons may have sometimes used pieces of antler

But why would someone with the tools to cut something like antler for buttons choose to use something like antler that makes a poor button?

Center pith of antler is porous and weak especially when holes are drilled for sewing.

That's the problem with antler buttons, they look just fine and act like a button should, until about the 25th time you run it into the button hole of the thing your going to button up and it's snaps off in your hand! And it's not the thread that's breaking, it's the center of the button.
I'm just saying that,
There are hundreds of other natural items available for free (like picking up a stick?) that make better button like material.

 

[satx78247]

Personally, I do NOT care for antler buttons, as I have a "traditional" German Loden Green hunting suit in heavy-weight wool (YES, the Germans really DO hunt in COAT, TIE & HAT at "formal hunts".) that has buttons down the front, on the lapels and on the epaulets & after "normal wear & tear" on hunts, I had several buttons break & therefore had to replace them with matching "slices" of Rotthirsh antler.
(The "replacements" then frequently broke again.)

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

AGREED, IF you mean cross-cutting/drilling the antler as a button. = Slicing the button out from the outer surface (essentially a cut parallel the long axis of the antler) works OK.
(That's what I finally used to replace ALL of the buttons on my Jaeger suit.= A PITA, if you want the truth.)

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

AGREED.
Pieces of cow/goat horn, antler "tips" OR pieces of wood are usable, too, absent money for purchased buttons.
(LOTS of "poor folks" used whittled pegs in place of nails/screws/bolts/etc., even in heavy construction & watercraft, as such items were expensive to buy (and often had to be imported) & wood/bone/stone/leather/shells was available & cheap/free to make closures/fittings.)

yours, satx

 

[LaBonte]

While I agree that that "rustic" antler buttons were most likely seldom used I have to disagree at how hard of the necessity for special tools to make SLAB buttons from antler (which is a form of bone and when polished it looks just like any other bone button,
This subject came up on another forum a while back and the idea was thrown out about slab antler buttons being too "hard" or time consuming. well since I like a challenge I took it up - I used simple tools available to most any backwoodsman of the era say 1750-1850: A 6" mill ******* file, a Russell 7" butcher knife, a small tree branch for a mallet, a piece of 1/16" or so diameter wire - I used a piece of coat hanger, and a candle. Total elapsed time was 10 minutes for both buttons shown below - they are made from a slab of elk antler, thus no pith to weaken the holes:

1) I cut a section out of the antler (1-1.125" diameter using the file to score around the antler until I could snap it off
2) The butcher knife and tree limb were used to split off slabs - I ruined three of four before getting the hang of just how to split
3) The file was again used to smooth the edges
4) Heated the wire with the candle (a small camp fire would have worked also)and burned the holes.
et Voila two easy to make antler buttons that could have been used if no other source for replacements was available.
Using this experimental archeology methodology slab antler buttons were well within the ability to be made using even the simplest of tools from the period of say 1750-1850. Probability - would depend on who, when and where along with the primary docs available for the who - when - where, but so far the documentation is poor at best for antler buttons of any type - albeit I seem to remember coming across a reference to English/Euro button makers using antler slabs at times for making bone buttons

 

[satx78247]

YEP. - You did essentially what I did to replace the buttons on my German hunting coat/vest/hat, except that I took a "junk antler" from a "culled" Rotthirsch, slabbed the antler with a band-saw at the "K-town" on-post craft shop, ground the "buttons" round & then drilled the holes with a SLOW-running drill-press & bit.
(I was "looking for" function & traditional appearance, rather than PC/HC.)

Note: German Jaegers have used Rotthirsch antler or bone buttons for CENTURIES.

yours, satx

 

[George]

That hasn't been my experience. I have large antler buttons on my haversack which I made more than 15 years ago, and they are still functioning as they should. I assure you, they have had a bumpy ride over hill and dale, and have never been a problem.

I guess I chose a good antler. I do remember making certain I didn't use sections with a porous center.



Not HC, but mine have been tough.

Spence

 

[satx78247]

Actually, I suspect that the antler buttons ARE really HC, IF you are talking about "new immigrants" from Central Europe OR very early in the "backwoods" for "pore folks".

Note to all: For our tribe, it's a moot point, IF you want to be "traditionally" Tsalagi, as our people "converted to Christianity" by about 1730-50 & thereafter used HOOKS or FLAT BLACK, fabric-covered, buttons as "shiny buttons" were considered to be "too militant" and "proud" by the Moravians, whose "plain dress" that we adopted soon after becoming "new converts".= New converts tend to be VERY devout!!!
(By about 1750, most Tsalagi women were wearing, as "daily dress", a floor-length, plain black dress, black stockings, a plain white apron & a white lace mob-cap, with "sensible shoes" in black leather & W/O buckles/buttons. Our men were then wearing leather, homespun or linen shirts, coats & trousers with moccasins or plain black shoes. = Most dressed quite like their "Godly"/"working class" neighbors.)

yours, satx

 

[tenngun]

And ties were also common. shirt necks and cuff were often tied as were ladies undergarments. I have never seen a tied haversack but can think of no reason it wouldn't be used. Do you have any idea when the commerical hook and eye was invented?

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Yes, not every one used buttons. Even today, we have a sect of Amish in this community that follow their four century old Swiss tradition of using ties and sometimes clasps instead of buttons (and today still no zippers)

Most of the really old young children's clothing I have seen used no buttons.

Today's sewing machines easily stitch the edges of button holes to keep the fabric from fraying, but I suspect that before the days of sewing machines, the labor intensive nature of finishing button holes was for the wealthy or mainly for coats and outer garments.

 

[Peter LeRay]

So far...

 

[Rifleman1776]

white pearl buttons

Would that mean 'mother of pearl'?
As from clam, mussle or oyster shells?
Methinks those go way back in time.

 

[satx78247]

YEP. "Ties" & laces were commonplace, in lieu of buttons, among "the plain people", including homespun "onesies", with long sleeves & legs for both genders, as undergarments.

As outer garments, men wore dark colors (or black) outerwear, hats, long sleeves & "wouldn't be caught dead" without shoes/stockings "off the farm".
Ladies & girls over 10-12YO wore shawls, gloves & wide-brimmed hats or scarves (covering their hair, which was braided or "put up" in a bun at the neck) to church, social gatherings, "going to town" & to school for "modesty" & to protect the hands & face from becoming "tan" from exposure to the Sun OR being SEEN to be "too work roughened".

Note: Most marriages (Before/after we became "plain". = Even today, most of the fraction of our tribe that resides in Northern Mexico are AMISH, RIVER BAPTIST or MENNONITES. = NO motor vehicles are allowed on the reservation across the Rio Grande/Bravo.) were arranged between mothers & grandmothers, with consent of each Clan Mother. - Also "bride prices" were paid (usually in livestock) to the bride's mother before "reading of the banns" at church.
(As you have doubtlessly guessed, "the old folks" were VERY religious.)

SORRY, I don't have a clue when hook & eye closures were invented.

just my opinion, satx

 

[satx78247]

Even in 2014, many of our "more traditional members" in Mexico don't wear clothes with zippers. = Ties, laces or "hook & eye" are usual for fastenings.

Note: until they went off to school, many little kids only wore clothes "at home" in cold weather. After that, "at home" boys wore breechclouts & girls "plain shifts" (for modesty) until puberty during hot weather.

Addenda: "Turning black" was considered to be a sign that a person was old enough to join the church, marry & assume ADULT responsibility in the community.

yours, satx