Antler buttons...

[crockett]

There is also the sort of short dowel or toggle that serves to pass into a button hole. Never say never but I didn't think antler slices were used for buttons.

 

[satx78247]

Given that antler slices were (and ARE still) used for buttons on European hunting suits & other "outdoor garments" for centuries, HOW can you say that with a straight face?
Despite the "group think" of the current "PC/HC people", "librarians", "thread counters" et.al. of the "traditional ML subculture", new immigrants brought their culture/folkways/mores/clothing with them to the USA.
(Fyi, San Antonio was a MAJORITY German-speaking/culture city for about 30 years in the mid-late 19th century = It was after 1880 that SA became the polyglot society that it remains.)

Note: For any readers that come to visit San Antonio, THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES & THE SOUTH TEXAS HERITAGE CENTER (on the grounds of THE WHITMANN MUSEUM) will "open your eyes" to what was ACTUALLY the usual clothing of late 18th & 19th Century TX residents, with particular emphasis on the mid-late 1800s.

 

[Stophel]

As for "traditional German clothing", well, a lot of it that we are familiar with is traditional only back to the 19th century, when things actually became MORE "Germanic"... There's not necessarily a direct line to the 18th century in traditional German clothing. I've not seen deer antler buttons on anything German (or any other nationality) from the 18th century (nor from the 19th century, actually, but that's not my thing). I just don't see the rough antler button thing being done in the 18th century anywhere. I know, I know, it's all rustic and romantic and backwoodsy and stuff, but still... they're just not there. What is there are the same types of buttons in Europe and the East coast. Brass buttons, pewter buttons, silver buttons, bone buttons, fabric covered buttons, Deaths Head buttons, thread buttons, Dorset buttons, etc.

Hooks and eyes were very common in the 18th century among all English and Europeans, and yes, they were (and are) more common to Germans, particularly of the more pietistic and "plain" sects. I'm having a coat made for me right now that I will put hooks and eyes on, befitting my rather pietistic persona.

Again, in the 18th century, buttons were everywhere. They were all the rage. Buttons all over everything, whether it needed them or not. The Mennonites/Amish and others saw it as extravagance, and they eschewed buttons as much as possible (still do). They were also seen as militaristic, as military uniforms were absolutely festooned with buttons. (same with mustaches, by the way... German soldiers were generally required to wear mustaches, so the Mennonites/Amish don't.)

Personally, I detest buttons and want none unless they are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, like shirt collars, cuffs, and breeches. I especially hate them on coats. The buttons hang on EVERYTHING. Another reason I'm doing my coat with hooks and eyes! :haha:

Yes, ties were also commonly used, I've seen many period images of shirt collars with a little tie through matching "buttonholes" on the collar instead of buttons or linked buttons. Rifle Shirts were sometimes tied closed on the front with little strips of woven tape. One existing rifle shirt, probably 1790's, has remnants of 4 ties, and I have read accounts of using ties on the front.

Ladies clothes were often PINNED closed!!! How inconvenient that must be! Ouch!

And buttonholes are not really hard to do, but they do take practice, and are no problem at all for an accomplished seamstress or tailor. Remember, people at the time did NOT make everything themselves!!!!!

One thing I just can't get over, however, is the idea of someone being "too poor to afford buttons". They were imported by the barrel full, tons and tons of buttons of all kinds. Even on the frontier, they were not hard to get. And the linked sleeve/collar buttons were also COMMON, even out here in the sticks. There really was no pressing reason to make buttons, especially antler buttons. :idunno:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Right there with ya Chris.

 

[Claude Mathis]

One thing I just can't get over, however, is the idea of someone being "too poor to afford buttons". They were imported by the barrel full, tons and tons of buttons of all kinds. Even on the frontier, they were not hard to get.

Here is an excerpt from a list, just to give a price comparison.

The 1826 agreement between William Ashley and the new firm of Smith Jackson and Sublette stipulated...Ashley or his agent would deliver to Smith Jackson and Sublette or to their agent at or near the west end of the little Lake of Bear River...the following items:

North West Fuzils [trade gun] - twenty-four dollars each
Gunpowder of the first and second quality - one dollar fifty per pound
Lead - one dollar per pound
Flints - fifty cents per dozen
Beaver traps - nine dollars each
Buttons - five dollars per Gross

 

[satx78247]

A few (I hope pertinent) comments on this subject:
1. VEREIN MUSEUM der DEUTSCH JAGERS in Frankfurt am Main has Anzuge des Deutsch Jagers (German hunter's suits) from the late 1700s on display, which have buttons made of both antler pieces and bones of various native small game & big game.
2. Der Deutsch Jagdgesellschaft von Texas (The Germanic Hunter's Society of Texas) has "carte de visit" at the SOUTH TEXAS HERITAGE CENTER here in SATX that show the sort of hunter's attire that was worn here in the 1860s (and perhaps earlier than that) and in the German States. - The Society was founded on South Alamo Street in 1859 by a group of hunters from Hesse, "To promote Germanic culture and hunting in the New Lands".- Also, one of the "stated reasons" for the founding of BEETHOVEN MAENNERCHOR HALLE und GARTEN is to "promote and improve marksmanship of Jagers and to assure that Germanic hunting traditions are forever maintained in Bexar County and the South Texas region".- Several "group photos" of such "suited" Jagers are framed in the Halle.===> in the early 1870s BEETHOVEN MAENNERCHOR sponsored "Germanic shooting contest" IN the area of 300-700 Perieda Street.
(I don't think that SAPD would allow that in 2014.= CHUCKLE.)
Full disclosure: I'm a "non-singing member" of the Beethoven Maennerchor, as I have "a thimble full" of Pomeranian blood.
3. A linen/home-crafted shirt from the early Texas "Anglo Invasion" is in the LAREDO CITY MUSEUM, which has CRUDELY-made buttons that LOOK like "slabs" of deer antler. - It has "repairs" that seem to be animal sinew or something similar, that is NOT leather.
4. THE MUSEUM OF FRONTIER LIFE in Staunton, VA has clothing with antler buttons.
5. THE TEXTILE MUSEUM on "S" Street in WDC has garments with deer antler buttons from the 1800s.
and
6. Garments of the mid-19th Century from "the Germanic colonies" of the TX Hill Country have antler buttons, which are displayed at THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES, here in SA.

THUS, the obvious conclusion is that antlers of various deer/elk were routinely used in the USA in the 18th & 19th Century, at least by NEW immigrants from central Europe & likely by "the poorest of the poor" in backwoods areas.
AND
That the "group think" of "traditionalists" of "the ML subculture" is just WRONG and is based either on IGNORANCE of facts and/or just foolish PRIDEFULNESS in not admitting their long-held opinions/conclusions are FALSE.

just my opinions, satx

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Wow!
All but one in your list is 19th century.
What is the provenance other than a curator's card description? There are numerous rifles in "reputable" museums notated with AWI use that were without a shadow of a doubt made post 1800.
I won't respond to the name calling a belittling classifications.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Again, in the 18th century, buttons were everywhere. They were all the rage. Buttons all over everything, whether it needed them or not.

Especially among London cockneys. :wink:

[/URL][/img]

 

[Black Hand]

THUS, the obvious conclusion is that antlers of various deer/elk were routinely used in the USA in the 18th & 19th Century, at least by NEW immigrants from central Europe & likely by "the poorest of the poor" in backwoods areas.

That is going a bit far...

That the "group think" of "traditionalists" of "the ML subculture" is just WRONG and is based either on IGNORANCE of facts and/or just foolish PRIDEFULNESS in not admitting their long-held opinions/conclusions are FALSE.

A few examples that may/may not be from the period are hardly enough to overcome the abundance of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Black Hand]

One needs to differentiate between "YE OLDE TYME" buttons made from slices of antler and buttons made in the same fashion as bone/horn buttons of the day.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I think that antler buttons were indeed in use, particularly for those that were not close to seaports and ready sources of commerce. But I also think they would have been slab style, not cross cut similar to bone buttons.

As for buttons on a cloth rucksack, the cloth wqas available, commercially made buttons probably were as well. I have a copy of Madison Grant's Book on possible bags somewhere. I'd check that to see what manner of buttons are found on such rugged use items

 

[Black Hand]

Images (6) from Diderot on button-making: http://www.amazon.com/6-Antique-Pr...S-WORKSHOP-Diderot-Prevost-1751/dp/B00DM0F51O

 

[zimmerstutzen]

at 50 cents a dozen, flints cost 4.167 cents a piece

at $5 per gross, buttons cost 3.47 cents a piece

for the time period, that was kind of steep

 

[satx78247]

Inasmuch as there were only Natives (or American Indians, if you prefer), mestizos and immigrants from Spain, the TX museums would be unlikely to have such Central European artifacts from a time that there were virtually NO "Anglos" in New Spain (now Mexico & the Southwest USA) in the period prior to 1810.
(There PROBABLY were, in the mid-late 18th century, a few "fugitives from French justice" in the Atascosita District, near today's city of Orange, TX for a brief period, some activities by pirates near Galveston Island, as well as a few French soldiers who briefly "showed the French colors" in an even earlier period of the 18th Century. - LITTLE is known for sure about their activities in that "west of the Sabine" area, other than that they were there.)
Note: When I did my MSEd, I tried without success to collect enough data to write an (at least "semi-scholarly") monograph on the Atascosita District's "first residents" and found almost nothing but:
1. more or less educated guesses,
2. 3rd or 4th hand French civil & military reports that said things like, "It is believed by some persons in the far western area of our domain that ---------.",
3. "bits & pieces" of "gossip" in private letters
and
4. a considerable number of family legends of "ancestors, who were in Texas before the Spanish."
(Absent the discovery of some here to fore unknown official documents/archeological evidence, I find it unlikely that anyone can make much of what little data on that subject that is now known.= I came to the sad conclusion that I had wasted considerable money & months of my time looking for "a will of the wisp".)

Note: While doing the "failed research", I found that Texas can claim to have been "under 7 flags", as "The Czar of All the Russias" CLAIMED to have "gathered into our realm" all of the land contiguous to AK.
(That would be all North & perhaps South America.)

just my opinion, satx

 

[Elnathan]

Inasmuch as there were only Natives (or American Indians, if you prefer), mestizos and immigrants from Spain, the TX museums would be unlikely to have such Central European artifacts from a time that there were virtually NO "Anglos" in New Spain (now Mexico & the Southwest USA) in the period prior to 1810.

Which artifact is this in reference to?

 

[satx78247]

Central European (Mostly from the Germanic states) clothing, footwear, other personal effects and arms.

THANKS for asking, as that was quite unclear.

yours, satx

 

[crockett]

Sorry if I got anyone upset here, I said "I think" cause to be truthful, I don't know.
But it seems...we have a whole lot of supposing going on here.
I was an antler button guy, sewed them on my stuff, thought they looked really pc, then someone told me no, not really. Then began a whole long effort trying to find original garments and see what kind of buttons they had on them. NOT EASY, not very many original garments remain.
There is the view that using slices of antler would be apparent, why not? easy enough to do and "button sized". Then you get into the thing- did they have a saw to saw the buttons way out in the wilderness, and on and on. The part about the pithy interior- I've had antler buttons break in that area.
In any event, I really don't know if they are or are not pc for America and for long hunters and mountain men. I thought they were but now I'm not sure, most of the garments I've seen have some sort of metal button.
And again, to me at least, the garment used for documentation needs to be that of a long hunter or mountain man.
Germans in central Texas, you bet. The hill country is one of my favorite places.

 

[satx78247]

Personally, I seriously DOUBT if longhunters & MM used antler slices for buttons, if for no other reason that they generally had access to settlements, trading posts & "company stores".

Civilian "working class" clothing of the Colonial days & even the 19th century is VERY rare today as it was worn, repaired & then converted to quilts/rags & if nothing else, thrown away when finally of NO further use for any purpose. = That's why there are FEW examples of such garments.
(I'm told that Colonial Williamsburg's "costumers" made "best guesses" as to what some "poor folks" attire was, as there simply was NONE to copy for some characters & "roles".)

just my opinion, satx

 

[Stophel]

There's no reason to make "best guesses" as to common folks' attire in the 18th century, since there are ample period descriptions of their clothing, and plenty of period images to go by, and yes, there still are quite a few 18th century articles of "common man's" clothing extant (not a huge number, of course, but they can be found). Yes, obviously most were simply worn out and reused or thrown away, just like clothes today. There is also quite a large amount of clothing items (buttons, buckles, pins, etc) and accessories from the 18th century belonging to common folks that are found at Revolutionary War encampment sites, frontier forts, old houses, etc. Lots and lots of "stuff" to look at and model our own reenacting attire and implements after.

I think we have a pretty good handle on most things of the time, given all the information that is available today. Some mysteries remain, of course, and probably always will. Unfortunately, some like to take this possibility of mysteries to speculate wildly and make an attempt to place what items or practices they personally want and wish existed into the 18th century.

There are things I wish existed at the time! And there are things that I really think did exist, but cannot unequivocally prove it, so I don't present those things as documentable items or make them into dogma.

 

[satx78247]

ALL that I know on that subject is what my ex-GF (Rachel) told me, when she worked in Human Relations for Colonial Williamsburg (while a grad student at W&M), that a lot of "educated guesses" were made on "costuming" for "working class roles".

yours, satx