Any information on double barrel pistol?

[Tom Stephens]

A friend and I are trying to find out any information about his percussion black powder pistol. The double barrels are over/under. Looks like they might be .58.

BP Pistol photos

Tom

 

[Zonie]

The pistol has several British characteristics about it.

In the large caliber you suggest with the double barrels it could be a Howdah or saddle pistol.
These were intended for use against dangerous game at close range, often as a 'last chance' defense.

Pistols such as this were also known to have been used by British officers against the enemy. Their great stopping power often proved useful against fanatical, drugged aggressors.

You did not mention any proof marks on the gun.

As almost all of the Howdah pistols were made in England or Europe they would have several proof marks stamped on the side of the barrels to indicate they had successfully passed the tests.

These proof marks are often on the left side near the breech or rear of the barrels.
They are unique to the Nation the tests were conducted in and could quickly identify the source.

Based on the lock style the pistol would have been made some time between 1840 and 1870.

I did a little photo enhancing to lighten one of your photos.

 

[satx78247]

I truly LIKE your DB handgun.

You might be interested to know that Lord Robert (then a LT.- BP was later a MG, British forces.) Baden-Powell owned a DB handgun that, depending on who you believe, was either 8 or 10 bore & usually was loaded with "heavy shot".
(I'd hate to know what firing such a hand-cannon must have been like on either end!!!)

BP's manservant shot/killed "a nighttime prowler" with that firearm & the official report of the Officer of the Day stated that the prowler was "cut nearly into 2 pieces".

yours, satx

 

[Tom Stephens]

Thanks guys! And thanks Jim for the better photo.

I just cannot find any markings (other than lots of scrolling) on the pistol. It looks like there might have been a number on the bottom of the barrel, but I can only make out a possible "0".

Hey, while looking on Google images for antique Howdah Hunter/Howdah Pistol (my brother has a new replica and also suggested this might be one, like you said, Jim), I found these images:

1) http://p1.la-img.com/690/26093/9701128_8_l.jpg These 2 pistols look very similar. The label on the Google image site said "Howdah Hunter Pistol 1840". I cannot verify the authenticity of that information.

2) http://p2.la-img.com/1044/20374/6956827_1_l.jpg

3) http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/HenryTathamHowdahPistols/IMG_0992_zpsb7457cd4.jpg

4) http://www.christies.com/lotfinder...percussion-howdah-pistol-5509751-details.aspx
with larger image: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder...ges/d55097/d5509751&IntObjectID=5509751&lid=1

5) http://www.icollector.com/Rare-Pr-1840-1860-Belgium-HOWDAH-Pistols_i11058480

They all have the same flavor of the one I put up. I would concur about it being a Howdah pistol... pretty exciting! My friend's also has 2 holes underneath the bottom barrel. Both holes are drilled all the way into the inside of the barrel. Looking at the photos above, I can guess they were used to mount the ramrod.

From the sites and images above, you look pretty spot on with the age, Jim.

Tom

 

[satx78247]

Btw, I mentioned your NICE O/U pistol to a friend this evening (who is FAR more knowledgeable than I about such things) & he said that there was at least one smoothbore, ML Howdah SxS pistol that was a ONE INCH bore. = The gun was custom-made in Dublin, Ireland for a British Major, who was seconded to the Indian Army.
(I really wouldn't want to even consider firing that one, though getting mauled/killed/eaten by a tiger would doubtless be far worse!)

yours, satx

 

[colmoultrie]

For comparison, here's one made by Lancaster in about 1850.
He was famous for using slightly twisted, oval bores in lieu of rifling. His firm went on to make 4 barrel cartridge guns in heavy calibers as man stoppers and how'd ah pistols. This one is about .54 cal.

 

[TFoley]

As almost all of the Howdah pistols were made in England or Europe they would have several proof marks stamped on the side of the barrels to indicate they had successfully passed the tests.

These proof marks are often on the left side near the breech or rear of the barrels.
They are unique to the Nation the tests were conducted in and could quickly identify the source.

Based on the lock style the pistol would have been made some time between 1840 and 1870.

As the howdah pistol was far more prevalent in the Indian sub-continent [its name is derived from the basket-like container mounted on an elephant from which members of the British Raj and native Indian aristocracy on 'shikar' would shoot tigers - that had a habit of climbing up the elephant to get at their killers], you will often find them having been made in British India by such famous makers as Rodda of Calcutta. Rodda made many of them in the early days by simply converting the P53 rifle or musket by cutting down the barrel to around 12 -14 inches, and modifying the stock to a more pistol-like outline. My pal Glen has such a pistol, firing the 535gr Minié bullet over the regulation charge of 68.5gr of FFg. It made sense to have a ready source of cheap and plentiful ammunition, common to everybody at that time.

It's quite, uh, interesting to shoot - at least, it is the first time. After than it gets a mite painful. It is astonishly accurate at short ranges of around three-four feet, but then you have only got the one shot before the tiger gets to you. The recommendation from all the old Raj hands was to shoot directly into the tiger's open mouth.

Riiiiight.

His other howdah pistol was made by Cogswell & Harrison, and is a double-barrelled .577 Snider with a break-open action locked by a side-camming lever on the trigger guard. I promise you that shooting that is not only an occasion in itself, but counting all your fingers afterwards can also occuply some time. AFAIK HE has not actually fired his Rigby of Dublin double in .500BPE. but then I don't blame him either.

But somebody else has.

I have a true story about THAT pistol with which I might inflict you some time - it really is VERY funny.

tac

 

[TFoley]

A friend and I are trying to find out any information about his percussion black powder pistol. The double barrels are over/under. Looks like they might be .58.

BP Pistol photos

Tom

Tom, it is my opinion, based on having actually shot many howdah pistols over the years, that this pistol is not of English make.

It has to be remembered that those folks who shot these handguns were not at the bottom of the food chain, nor mostly anywhere near the middle part. They were officers of the EIC, or of the British Indian Army, or native aristocracy, and money meant little or nothing to them in that respect.

I hope you will not be offended by my comment that this pistol is very crude by comparison with any English/Irish-made howdah pistol, especially in the barrels and around the action. A look at any of the products of contemporary howdah pistol makers would reveal machining and fitting of the highest quality, as befits a gun that would have cost as much as a small four-wheel carriage at that time. Figure on a Rigby of Dublin howdah pistol, cased with all it accessories, costing the same now as it did then at around the equivalent of $4500 or so. The Lancaster oval bore FOUR-barrelled pistol cost an astonishing 500 guineas - that's around a present day cost of $6500. Remember the prime reason for the very existence of this kind of pistol was a literal last-ditch defence against a wounded, or 'missed' tiger that could, and often did, take your head off with a swipe of a paw. They HAD to work every time - the reputation of the gun-maker depended on it.

Also, there would have been very little - if any - ornamentation on it - in fact, I've never seen one that was scrolled like yours/his is.

So, although it's not British, it might be Belgian-made - after all, the Belgians made firearms for everybody, but as Zonie notes, it really needs the proof marks to be seen.

EVERY English-made/Irish-made and Belgian-made firearm has proof marks of some kind denoting successful passing of gun Proof. England has the London and Birmingham Proof houses, Ireland that time had the Dublin Proof house, and Belgium has the Liége Proof House.

tac

 

[BillinOregon]

Fascinatin' stuff lads.
Whatever its actual provenance, that pistol is a prize.

 

[robinghewitt]

this pistol is very crude by comparison with any English/Irish-made howdah pistol

I was waiting for someone else to say that.

Well done tac :thumbsup:

 

[satx78247]

The handgun could easily have been built in British India or in another Asian nation.
(The handgun that "may be", "could be" or "is said to be" the relatively famous howdah pistol of Lord Baden-Powell is really PLAIN VANILLA. = Nobody knows for sure that it IS BP's handgun, that was displayed at the NRA Museum in 1960 in commemoration of 50 years of the BSA.)

yours, satx

 

[TFoley]

The handgun could easily have been built in British India or in another Asian nation.
(The handgun that "may be", "could be" or "is said to be" the relatively famous howdah pistol of Lord Baden-Powell is really PLAIN VANILLA. = Nobody knows for sure that it IS BP's handgun, that was displayed at the NRA Museum in 1960 in commemoration of 50 years of the BSA.)

'zackly. Ornamentation is not necessary on a utilitarian arm like this, that has only one possible use back then. It has to be said that we can also get a laff a hundred and fifty years later watching some klutz actually shoot one. :haha:

What WAS vitally necessary was 100% certainty that when you squoze that trigger, a bang was going to take place very shortly afterwards - every time.

tac

 

[satx78247]

EXACTLY CORRECT.

O/U & SxS double-barrel pistols of various sizes were not really common in the 18th/19th Century BUT they were not that rare either.

For example, one of the former Division Commanders of the MD Sons of Confederate Veterans owns his G-G-grandfather's O/U handgun in .47 caliber, that has about 7" barrels.
(Robert is also lucky to have inherited any number of his ancestor's personal effects including a key-winding solid gold pocket watch.)
That handgun IS heavily ornamented & fitted with real ivory grips.
(It was custom-made in France circa 1840 & is HEAVILY engraved. The barrel has several proof marks & bears the "name": A. Jobert. It also has a "B" on the barrels & MAY have been "one of 2 pistols" at one time.)

That pistol is seen (tucked into his uniform sash) in a photograph of Robert's ancestor at the Louisiana Division, United Confederate Veterans Reunion in New Orleans in 1890.

yours, satx

 

[colmoultrie]

I do not believe either the OP's pistol or the Lancaster I posted was a howdah pistol. Mine has a belt hook on the left side - not necessary in a howdah. The scrollwork on mine, together with the belt hook and captive ramrod, indicate that it was more of a general carry piece - one for someone who wanted a fast second shot in an age where most pistols were single shot. Pistols like this, as mentioned, were uncommon, but not really rare. Workmanship varied from the exquisite to the crude. They are fascinating and either really ungainly and ugly or beautiful - sometimes both at once.

 

[Rick Son]

Early gang banger pistol held side ways to shoot 7-11 clerk.. :shocked2:

 

[Tom Stephens]

satx, I like your mention of the ONE INCH bore pistol!

tac, you said "there would have been very little - if any - ornamentation on it - in fact, I've never seen one that was scrolled like yours/his is."
I can only go by what I've seen in the links I posted in the 4th post in this thread. Many look VERY similar to my friend's.

BillinOregon, thanks!

Tom

 

[satx78247]

I've wondered what sort of load of powder/buckshot that an one inch-bore smoothie would use????
(Btw, my friend said that the monster had 10" long barrels.)

The recoil must have been BRUTAL.

yours, satx

 

[Dphar]

Probably a low end English gun if one can find proofs. Or it could be a foreign made knock off. The the American trade.

 

[TFoley]

Probably a low end English gun if one can find proofs. Or it could be a foreign made knock off. The the American trade.

Sir, there WAS no 'low end' of the howdah pistol market.

As it is now, back then tiger hunting was for the rich and royalty, not a hoi-poloi, and the shootin' irons used were of the best quality, not affordable quality, which is why you don't see the old Sears catalogues filled with 'The Acme - our very best howdah pistol, guaranteed to drop the infamous Boiling Tiger of Wyoming at ten full paces - our best price is just $4.98.'

I would put money on it NOT being made in England.

tac

 

[satx78247]

EXACTLY SO. - I would also bet that it was not made by RHODA or any of the other "high end" Indian gun-makers.
(British India had a few custom makers who made FINE quality firearms, though perhaps NOT as "high end" as RIGBY, PURDY & other English/Irish makes were were.)

My GUESS for the original poster's firearm is either Belgian or French made.

yours, satx