Any known Canadian flintlocks?

[skillest]

Excellent post. A lot of good information here. Thank you.

By rifle culture I mean a few things combined to various degrees. The ratio if that combination might depend on time-frame. First, was rifle use even known about? Not being flippant, there was a time period in the U.S. wherein rifles were being used in parts of Pennsylvania and Virginia, maybe Maryland,,,, but people in most of New York and New England had never heard of one.
(It does seem odd/interesting to me that with "political" travel between places like Boston, Philadelphia, Fredericksburg, and Richmond, that at least more mention of rifle-guns in period writings and even a few more examples didn't come north sooner.)

Once established at least as a known item, was there a demand for then from local makers? This would tie in with another ingredient in our mix which would establish that "rifle culture," (and one that gets asked about many things when discussing historical material culture),,, how common were rifles? How well accepted were they? What purpose were they put to? For the type of work a gun was put to in Canada at the time, was there a significant enough advantage offered by the rifle over the well established large bore smoothbore?


As to examples or a lack of, this could simply be a numbers game. If we think about it, we actually have very few surviving original period guns in the U.S. either made here or imported, when compared to the number of guns that were available at the time.
I never said anything denying rifles were made in Canada,,,, I wouldn't know one way or the other. But my impression is that it would not have been common and if not common this means that there was a much smaller pool of potential survivors. Less originals equals less examples 150 years later. Maybe no examples depending on where those rifles went and what they were used for. As you said, there was a lot of frontier, and a lot of that was navigated by canoe. Lots of potential for lost guns there, lol.
Also, of a gunsmith can make a decent living fixing HBC guns and guns for the local population, with little demand for new rifles, why build them? Again, not saying they never did, it's just another reason for there being less of them and fewer to no examples.

Where else have you looked for examples? Are there any national museums or archives, or university collections that might house an example or three?

Unfortunately, the state of firearms in Museums here isn't as good as I'd prefer. Most museums with any sort of firearms collection start at WW1 and go up from there. They will have the odd NWMP Adams revolvers and Winchesters, Colts, etc, but not too many muzzleloaders (if we don't count single examples of brown besses or trade rifles).

I've looked through some private arms collections and spoken to those who knew Don Blyth, who was known as Canada's premiere collector of Canadian-made firearms (Gooding's book used many of Blyths firearms collection for photography), but his collection was sold off through Miller & Miller a few years back. Even though he didn't have any flintlocks, he didn't deny that they existed at one point in time (from what I've been told through fellow collectors who knew him). Supposedly, some of his collection was given to the McCord-Stewart Museum in Montréal, but they, unfortunately, shut down during Covid, and their collections are now all boxed up, unable to be looked into. They do have some examples you can look up on their website online, but again, all the ones that are listed as being made in Canada are percussions. There are tons of British and French rifles *used* by Canadians, but they don't show any that were made here. There are a lot of "unknowns" in their collection, however.

There is an interesting example of a Baker rifle used by Dr. Wolfred Nelson, who was a member of the "Patriotes", a political movement in Lower Canada (Quebec) that was against colonial control of the Canadian colonies, and often resulted in Armed conflict between them and the British. He was exiled in 1837 for treason but was pardoned after the Canadian Rebellions and would become mayor of Montreal in 1854.

https://collections.musee-mccord-st...0219439cc942a6801cbe881d6c5f0d1a5bfb&idx=2246
A lot of folks outside Canada don't realize that we had our own scuffles up north with the Colonial governments. Basically, simultaneously the Anglo-Canadians of Ontario and the Franco-Canadians of Quebec rebelled against the governments, which, although mostly unsuccessful and not too bloody, led to a reforming of the Colonial government and *somewhat* establishing Canada as an entity in and of itself, rather than just an extension of Britain. Canada eventually got quasi-independence in 1867 as a Dominion. Here's a bit on those early rebellions if you're curious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellions_of_1837–1838https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Canada_Rebellionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Canada_Rebellionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriote_movement
I've also been speaking about this topic with the Intendant at Château Ramezay - Historic Site and Museum of Montréal, who knows his colonial arms, but also has never seen a Canadian-made flintlock and is also looking into the subject. Interesting side note, as it's not evidence of Canadian-made rifles, but he's worked at a dig site called the Cartier-Roberval in Quebec they were able to find European flint, seemingly shaped to be used for a rifle and showing wear marks from use, that they were able to date to 1541, which far predates when we think flintlocks became a common use weapon, especially in the Colonies!

 

[Urban_Redneck]

Canada seems to have been under very different colonial rules than America. I imagine that has a great deal to do with the HBC's relationship to the crown. I wonder if there were laws against selling or distributing arms that had not passed through Birmingham or London proof house, thus preserving HBC's monopoly on gun trade and a measure of control for the crown.

 

[skillest]

Canada seems to have been under very different colonial rules than America. I imagine that has a great deal to do with the HBC's relationship to the crown. I wonder if there were laws against selling or distributing arms that had not passed through Birmingham or London proof house, thus preserving HBC's monopoly on gun trade and a measure of control for the crown.

Hmmm... I'm not sure! It's possible. I've seen early rifles that are percussion which have British proofs on some small parts, but it could also be because they were made in the UK and imported to be fit to domestically made rifles. A lot of rifles by William Marston, Philo Soper, and Gurd & Sons (some of the largest manufacturers of muzzleloaders in the 1830s-1880s) generally don't have proof marks, however.

Something that is interesting is that some examples from smaller one-off gunsmiths in Ontario will have Remington-manufactured barrels and Joseph Golcher or Tarrat & Sons-manufactured locks that were imported for their use. The medium and larger smiths made their parts themselves for the most part.

 

[Belleville]

'I've recently been researching Canadian-made muzzleloading rifles for both a historical project but also for possible reproduction purposes..."

There seems to be hardly no guns built in Fr. colonial Canada and no rifles. Most all guns there were smoothbore and imported mainly from France.

 

[Loyer]

Chatham, Ontario Canada (then Upper Canada) had a gunmaker named James Monroe “Gunsmith” Jones. He made a presentation piece to be given to the King as he passed through but he was passed by for being a Black man. This was 1850 period

 

[skillest]

Chatham, Ontario Canada (then Upper Canada) had a gunmaker named James Monroe “Gunsmith” Jones. He made a presentation piece to be given to the King as he passed through but he was passed by for being a Black man. This was 1850 period

Yep he was a freed slave who moved to Canada in the 1800s, and started making guns around during the time when you see a lot of gunsmiths appear here. I've seen a couple examples of his work, including a presentation Derringer similar to the ones he made for the Prince of Wales. He was also on a board in Chatam that voted in 1858 to invade the US with a militia if southern slavers ever brought their intentions past New York. He actually settled in the States again before his death.

https://www.canadashistory.ca/explore/politics-law/the-prince-the-pistols
One firearm that was accepted by the Prince of Wales was one of a pair of target rifles made by Philo Soper, a gunsmith from London Ontario, who was a part of the Soper family of Gunsmiths, responsible for forming dominion gun works later in life. Philo was considered the best gunsmith in Canada until the late 1860s. The rifles he made look exquisite, and both rifles were identical to each other except one had a black walnut stock and the other a maple stock. The Prince chose to take the maple stocked rifle instead because a maple stocked rifle was more "uniquely Canadian".

Here's a photo of Philo Soper's rifle from Gooding's book. Also here's a link to another Soper presentation rifle in nearly identical form.

https://www.icollector.com/PHILO-SO...GET-RIFLE-WITH-CASE-AND-ACCESSORIES_i17332547

 

[Thagomizer]

Well, boys and girls, this has been a fascinating thread! Lots to think about and more research to be done. Thanks to all that contributed.

 

[Jason holgate]

Gr8 post

 

[skillest]

I finally got the Man-at-arms 2015 article in the mail about the Canadian-made flintlock pistol. It does indeed seem to be made in Montreal in the mid 1700s,as the makers mark on it and the gunsmith are from Canada. I found another online that is somewhat similar in design and is also marked Montreal, but not on the lock and instead on the pommel. It also has engraving on the side which says Paris, so this example may be French rather than French-Canadian, possibly bought in Montreal but made in France?. Original Circa 1750 French Canadian Silver Mounted Flintlock Pistol Marked Montreal

 

[smoothshooter]

Hey everyone!

I've recently been researching Canadian-made muzzleloading rifles for both a historical project but also for possible reproduction purposes, and through all my research, it has been surprising to discover that, at least according to most collectors, no known flintlocks have been discovered that can be proven to have been made in Canada.

I have a book by S James Gooding called "The Canadian Gunsmiths 1608-1900" which has definitely been beneficial and has provided good examples of muzzleloading rifles created in Canada during the mid to late 1800s, but, interestingly, he states that no Canadian-made rifles have been discovered which were made before 1820 and that no known Canadian-made flintlocks exist, only percussion rifles. His book was written in 1962 but still, even today through my discussions with Canadian collectors, no one has found a flintlock that can be proven to have been produced in Canada. There are a few which seem to perhaps have been flintlock-style but made as percussion rifles, or possibly converted from flintlock to percussion, but this seems quite strange to me, as there were definitely gunsmiths in Canada around the time of the flintlock era that were making flintlocks. One Canadian arms collector I have spoken to but have yet to meet, says he has an early full-stock 1832 production percussion rifle that he believes is a converted flintlock, which would make sense.

I'm sure that, during the time of New France, British control, and then leading into Upper/Lower Canada, a lot of rifles that would have been used in Canada would have been imported from Britain/France and likely military models of rifles, perhaps Baker rifles would have been used by hunters? I've seen quite a few rifles used by the Hudson Bay Company who themselves had a lot of registered gunsmiths, but all examples I've seen were simply earlier British muskets or french trade rifles that were purchased by the company, no custom domestic work. There are many examples of custom sporting percussion rifles from the 1830s-1900s I have observed that were made in Canada, and their production is at a scale which shows to me that rifle production didn't just pop up out of nowhere once percussion locks became popular, these gunsmiths must have some sort of production lineage from making flintlocks to making percussion rifles. There are records in Jim Gooding's book of hundreds of Gunsmiths working in Canada at the height of the flintlock era, which also makes me wonder what they would have been making.

Interestingly, an article named "Upper Canadians and Their Guns: An exploration via country store accounts" by Douglas McCalla shows that a large number of flints and round balls were being sold from sporting stores in Canada, being the most popular item around 1808-09, but around 1840 that switched to many sales of percussion caps and percussion locks by themself, not attached to a rifle. In my opinion, these customers likely bought these locks for converting original flintlocks to percussion.

With all that being said, I was wondering if anyone knows of any examples of flintlocks made in Canada, or, marked by any Canadian gunsmiths? Alternatively, does anyone know what rifles the Canadians would have likely been importing/using most often for hunting in and around the southern Ontario area? Maybe there are examples of Canadian-modified trade guns or something? Any information would help. Heck, maybe there is some work already out there on the subject that I don't know about.

It would be interesting to see if any flintlocks are known to exist that were made here, and if so, if there is a similar design to them, similar to how there are similar styles of rifles around the 18th/19th century seen in Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Illinois, etc. This is due half to my interest in the history of these arms and due to the fact that I'm making a muzzleloader for hunting season this year, and I'd like to match the styling to be as "Historically Canadian" as I can! Based on the percussion rifles I have found (aside from Goodings Book I've examined 78 rifles if you exclude double barrels and over-unders), there was a stereotypical Canadian "style" that existed at the time around Toronto, London, Hamilton etc, where rifles had American-styled crescent buttplates but british-style locks and forends.

Also, side note but related, if anyone has examples of Canadian percussion muzzleloaders, feel free to post them! I've been collecting information on them including their design queues and features, as well as location, and mapping out where they were made in Canada to see if there is any correlation between time periods, counties, makers etc.

Thats it! Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help!

Cheers,
- Justin

I never really thought about it before, but Canada has virtually no history of gun manufacturing at all, unless they made a few during WWII. Must be a cultural thing where they have had little use for guns.
Explains a lot about their strong socialist history.

 

[skillest]

I never really thought about it before, but Canada has virtually no history of gun manufacturing at all, unless they made a few during WWII. Must be a cultural thing where they have had little use for guns.
Explains a lot about their strong socialist history.

That's...definitely an opinion

 

[PathfinderNC]

It’s a good thread.

 

[springfield art]

A rule on the forum is we don’t talk about religion. However I’ll throw this in. France was a catholic country. The French and Indian war is within living memory of French killing Protestants
The German speaking countries that brought rifles to America were almost all some sort of Protestant.
I don’t know if any ‘Germans’ that whole chunk of Central Europe, came to French Canada at all, plenty came after the English take over. I would think Protestant British colonies would have been more inviting than French Catholic colonies.
Even a century after the French and Indian war during the Mexican war and the aftermath Mexican Catholics were terrified that Protestant Americans would slaughter them, and Americans that moved in to purchased land had the same fears of the Mexicans

Yeah, plus recall when the French kicked all the Hugenots (sp.?) out of Quebec, they went to Louisiana and became good ol' Bayou Boys!

 

[springfield art]

That's...definitely an opinion

I never ever thought of the Canadians making any arms at all, either! Just used what the Brits/Frogs had. Can't imagine a Canadian forging at a cabin like we had in the US, all the many gunmakers. Plus, the modern Canucks are super anti-gun!

 

[Rató:rats]

Yeah, plus recall when the French kicked all the Hugenots (sp.?) out of Quebec, they went to Louisiana and became good ol' Bayou Boys!

Louisiana Cajun are descendants of French Catholics forcibly deported by the British out of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, P.E.I. And the U.S state of Maine. This was the Acadian Expulsion. This area was known as Acadia. In French pronunciation Acadien sounds like Ah-Cay-Jen and eventually was corrupted to Cajun.

 

[Rató:rats]

I never ever thought of the Canadians making any arms at all, either! Just used what the Brits/Frogs had. Can't imagine a Canadian forging at a cabin like we had in the US, all the many gunmakers. Plus, the modern Canucks are super anti-gun!

I never ever thought of the Canadians making any arms at all, either! Just used what the Brits/Frogs had. Can't imagine a Canadian forging at a cabin like we had in the US, all the many gunmakers. Plus, the modern Canucks are super anti-gun!

Of the top 5 longest sniper shots in history 3 are by Canadians. Except for Toronto we’re not really a gun averse nation.

 

[Mcat]

Hey everyone!

I've recently been researching Canadian-made muzzleloading rifles for both a historical project but also for possible reproduction purposes, and through all my research, it has been surprising to discover that, at least according to most collectors, no known flintlocks have been discovered that can be proven to have been made in Canada.

I have a book by S James Gooding called "The Canadian Gunsmiths 1608-1900" which has definitely been beneficial and has provided good examples of muzzleloading rifles created in Canada during the mid to late 1800s, but, interestingly, he states that no Canadian-made rifles have been discovered which were made before 1820 and that no known Canadian-made flintlocks exist, only percussion rifles. His book was written in 1962 but still, even today through my discussions with Canadian collectors, no one has found a flintlock that can be proven to have been produced in Canada. There are a few which seem to perhaps have been flintlock-style but made as percussion rifles, or possibly converted from flintlock to percussion, but this seems quite strange to me, as there were definitely gunsmiths in Canada around the time of the flintlock era that were making flintlocks. One Canadian arms collector I have spoken to but have yet to meet, says he has an early full-stock 1832 production percussion rifle that he believes is a converted flintlock, which would make sense.

I'm sure that, during the time of New France, British control, and then leading into Upper/Lower Canada, a lot of rifles that would have been used in Canada would have been imported from Britain/France and likely military models of rifles, perhaps Baker rifles would have been used by hunters? I've seen quite a few rifles used by the Hudson Bay Company who themselves had a lot of registered gunsmiths, but all examples I've seen were simply earlier British muskets or french trade rifles that were purchased by the company, no custom domestic work. There are many examples of custom sporting percussion rifles from the 1830s-1900s I have observed that were made in Canada, and their production is at a scale which shows to me that rifle production didn't just pop up out of nowhere once percussion locks became popular, these gunsmiths must have some sort of production lineage from making flintlocks to making percussion rifles. There are records in Jim Gooding's book of hundreds of Gunsmiths working in Canada at the height of the flintlock era, which also makes me wonder what they would have been making.

Interestingly, an article named "Upper Canadians and Their Guns: An exploration via country store accounts" by Douglas McCalla shows that a large number of flints and round balls were being sold from sporting stores in Canada, being the most popular item around 1808-09, but around 1840 that switched to many sales of percussion caps and percussion locks by themself, not attached to a rifle. In my opinion, these customers likely bought these locks for converting original flintlocks to percussion.

With all that being said, I was wondering if anyone knows of any examples of flintlocks made in Canada, or, marked by any Canadian gunsmiths? Alternatively, does anyone know what rifles the Canadians would have likely been importing/using most often for hunting in and around the southern Ontario area? Maybe there are examples of Canadian-modified trade guns or something? Any information would help. Heck, maybe there is some work already out there on the subject that I don't know about.

It would be interesting to see if any flintlocks are known to exist that were made here, and if so, if there is a similar design to them, similar to how there are similar styles of rifles around the 18th/19th century seen in Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Illinois, etc. This is due half to my interest in the history of these arms and due to the fact that I'm making a muzzleloader for hunting season this year, and I'd like to match the styling to be as "Historically Canadian" as I can! Based on the percussion rifles I have found (aside from Goodings Book I've examined 78 rifles if you exclude double barrels and over-unders), there was a stereotypical Canadian "style" that existed at the time around Toronto, London, Hamilton etc, where rifles had American-styled crescent buttplates but british-style locks and forends.

Also, side note but related, if anyone has examples of Canadian percussion muzzleloaders, feel free to post them! I've been collecting information on them including their design queues and features, as well as location, and mapping out where they were made in Canada to see if there is any correlation between time periods, counties, makers etc.

Thats it! Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help!

Cheers,
- Justin

Miller a Miller had an auction of Canadiana including many percussion rifles in September, October 2021. A lot of brief information pieces on the makers. The attached photo shows a lot, but not all of the offerings. You can expand the photo. It is made from screen shots from the Miller and Miller app. In the app you can look at previous auctions without logging in.

 

[Jaeger]

Have you heard about this guy? : https://www.youtube.com/@TheWoodlandEscape This is quicklly becoming one of my favorite youtube channels and he seems very knowledgeable about history.

I've watched a number of his videos, and he is good for ideas and inspiration!

 

[OLUT]

Miller a Miller had an auction of Canadiana including many percussion rifles in September, October 2021. A lot of brief information pieces on the makers. The attached photo shows a lot, but not all of the offerings. You can expand the photo. It is made from screen shots from the Miller and Miller app. In the app you can look at previous auctions without logging in.

Mcat, thanks for posting this auction info. In my part of the US, Canadian guns are rarely seen. The auction site's photos are great and have expanded my limited knowledge of Canadian gunmakers considerably. I now have a greater appreciation for the couple in my collection, especially with the very high prices this auction drew, even with the conversion rate of $1 to CAD $1.34.

 

[Rudyard]

Hey everyone!

I've recently been researching Canadian-made muzzleloading rifles for both a historical project but also for possible reproduction purposes, and through all my research, it has been surprising to discover that, at least according to most collectors, no known flintlocks have been discovered that can be proven to have been made in Canada.

I have a book by S James Gooding called "The Canadian Gunsmiths 1608-1900" which has definitely been beneficial and has provided good examples of muzzleloading rifles created in Canada during the mid to late 1800s, but, interestingly, he states that no Canadian-made rifles have been discovered which were made before 1820 and that no known Canadian-made flintlocks exist, only percussion rifles. His book was written in 1962 but still, even today through my discussions with Canadian collectors, no one has found a flintlock that can be proven to have been produced in Canada. There are a few which seem to perhaps have been flintlock-style but made as percussion rifles, or possibly converted from flintlock to percussion, but this seems quite strange to me, as there were definitely gunsmiths in Canada around the time of the flintlock era that were making flintlocks. One Canadian arms collector I have spoken to but have yet to meet, says he has an early full-stock 1832 production percussion rifle that he believes is a converted flintlock, which would make sense.

I'm sure that, during the time of New France, British control, and then leading into Upper/Lower Canada, a lot of rifles that would have been used in Canada would have been imported from Britain/France and likely military models of rifles, perhaps Baker rifles would have been used by hunters? I've seen quite a few rifles used by the Hudson Bay Company who themselves had a lot of registered gunsmiths, but all examples I've seen were simply earlier British muskets or french trade rifles that were purchased by the company, no custom domestic work. There are many examples of custom sporting percussion rifles from the 1830s-1900s I have observed that were made in Canada, and their production is at a scale which shows to me that rifle production didn't just pop up out of nowhere once percussion locks became popular, these gunsmiths must have some sort of production lineage from making flintlocks to making percussion rifles. There are records in Jim Gooding's book of hundreds of Gunsmiths working in Canada at the height of the flintlock era, which also makes me wonder what they would have been making.

Interestingly, an article named "Upper Canadians and Their Guns: An exploration via country store accounts" by Douglas McCalla shows that a large number of flints and round balls were being sold from sporting stores in Canada, being the most popular item around 1808-09, but around 1840 that switched to many sales of percussion caps and percussion locks by themself, not attached to a rifle. In my opinion, these customers likely bought these locks for converting original flintlocks to percussion.

With all that being said, I was wondering if anyone knows of any examples of flintlocks made in Canada, or, marked by any Canadian gunsmiths? Alternatively, does anyone know what rifles the Canadians would have likely been importing/using most often for hunting in and around the southern Ontario area? Maybe there are examples of Canadian-modified trade guns or something? Any information would help. Heck, maybe there is some work already out there on the subject that I don't know about.

It would be interesting to see if any flintlocks are known to exist that were made here, and if so, if there is a similar design to them, similar to how there are similar styles of rifles around the 18th/19th century seen in Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Illinois, etc. This is due half to my interest in the history of these arms and due to the fact that I'm making a muzzleloader for hunting season this year, and I'd like to match the styling to be as "Historically Canadian" as I can! Based on the percussion rifles I have found (aside from Goodings Book I've examined 78 rifles if you exclude double barrels and over-unders), there was a stereotypical Canadian "style" that existed at the time around Toronto, London, Hamilton etc, where rifles had American-styled crescent buttplates but british-style locks and forends.

Also, side note but related, if anyone has examples of Canadian percussion muzzleloaders, feel free to post them! I've been collecting information on them including their design queues and features, as well as location, and mapping out where they were made in Canada to see if there is any correlation between time periods, counties, makers etc.

Thats it! Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help!

Cheers,
- Justin

Dear Justin I think you answered your own question re the home manufacture V Imported guns but look at your PM, I wrote what I hope would be of interest .
Regards Rudyard