Any linguists out there?

[Tom A Hawk]

I think we would have to speak the language to understand the significant of the letters. I read the usage of one of the letters was discontinued in Ukrainian in 1917.

 

[Rudyard]

Even if it has no meaning at all it' Looks' to the illiterate prospective buyer like its some European signature and as such is meant to enhance its sale price . I don't know how common generaly but in my own limited experence I have noted many such spurious additions ' Fufoeld' & 'Wobbly & Stote' ect . I once pointed out a spuriuos mark in an Indian Shop They replied "Tell a lie ,Tell a lie". Sort of down market fake Rolex. Rudyard

 

[TFoley]

TO ALL:

This area of the forum is for serious study and discussion. Please do not make "funny" posts here.

Thank You.

Sir, my posts concerning this intriguing firearm were not meant to be amusing, and I'm surprised that you considered them to be anything less than serious.

 

[TFoley]

One of the more used spoofs were to be found on the top of early unmentionable revolvers - 'Smoth & Wisson' and 'Wabley'. Of course, it is the world of shotguns where such frawks dominated sales - 'Holland & Co.' and 'Wesley-Richards' were just two of the dozens used to gull the unwary buyer into thinking he had acquired a true gem. It must be said that most of them were actually good sound guns - the Belgian makers were compelled by law to proof them before sale, no matter that they were really just a low-grade working gun.

 

[toot]

I have a Damascus DBL-S/S rabbit eared 12 bore shotgun that has the locks engraved on them--W.RICHARDS. by no way is it a WESTLY FICHARDS, Shure is a play on a famous name!. but odd thing on the water table it has ENGLISH crown & septer marks, in stead of the usually found BELGIUM ones on the nock off's? odd for Shure? any one that can chime on this odd mating of ENGLISH FAUX markings on the WATER TABLE of the GUN.?

 

[BillinOregon]

Well I just had to Google "knee blunderbuss" and good gracious there are pages of them that were or are for sale or auction -- many of them described as Turkish or Ottoman. How were these fired?
I hope there is a meaningful translation of the characters but it does indeed seem possible that they are just markings. I wonder what was in the mind of the lock maker as he finished his piece.

 

[rickystl]

Rudyard, in post #23 above, has it right. Most of the locals in the region were illiterate and could not read or write their own language, much less a foreign one. It was simply done to give a perspective buyer the idea of European origin for the locks and/or barrels so the seller could try to charge more money for the gun. You will even find locks and barrels marked with English letters, dates, etc. Often mis-spelled or stamped backwards. LOL
There were in fact many genuine European locks and barrels exported to the region for trade or resale. But these seem to end up on the better made guns. Just as often, these guns will show up with no marks anywhere.

The term "knee" pistol is a sort of generic term used by many collectors to describe these blunderbuss pistols. Someone a long time ago fantasized that the short, little butt stock might have been positioned against the knee when firing on horseback. LOL I wouldn't fire it while positioned against my knee cap !! LOL But the term seems to have stuck. I could visualize resting the but against the waist or chest to somewhat steady the general direction of aim while at a gallop (?) Don't know. Still a mystery among collectors. Maybe just a styling technique to facilitate the grip, as many of these pistols had a single sling swivel on the left side plate area.

As Bill mentions above, there are many surviving examples available today. It most likely had a European origin. But apparently never caught on. However, they were vastly popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire from about the late 18th Century through the 3rd quarter of the 19th Century. Which is probably why there are so many original specimens still available today.

Here are some photos of one in my collection with a high quality European export lock and barrel and assembled locally. Relief chiseling on the lock and barrel with a makers/owners stamp on the barrel tang.

Notice the guy sitting in the middle holding on of these pistols.

Rick

 

[MrMackc]

Like maybe a password only having meaning to the originator?

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Toot I got the jist of your post apart from the water table part That's got me foxed.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Zonie]

Sir, my posts concerning this intriguing firearm were not meant to be amusing, and I'm surprised that you considered them to be anything less than serious.

Did you notice the way I started my post? It said:

"
TO ALL:

This area of the forum is for serious study and discussion....".

When I preface one of my posts with the words, "TO ALL", it means I am not addressing the post directly proceeding my post but, rather, it is addressing all of the people who are reading or who have replied to the thread. Simply put, it means I was not addressing only you.

 

[tenngun]

Could it b magic? Or cultic having no meaning to those not initiated?
Many Pennsylvanian Dutch put the Christian initials on their guns, that doesn’t spell any word. If we didn’t know what it met it wouldn’t make sense.

 

[Kozmo]

I've studied Russian and Greek, and also have a little familiarization with old church slavonic, which is an early version of what is Bulgarian today, iirc. The two 'p' symbols are somewhat like slavonic characters that would be an R sound. As someone else noted, it looks like an abbreviation with the letters Ee R R Sha Ee. The first and last letters (H with diagonal line) are certainly Cyrillic and as far as I've seen unique to Slavic languages. If not Ukraine, I'm guessing Balkans region, maybe Serbian.

 

[Bucky]

"иррши"
Well, this is an interesting thread..... I got on an online Russian keyboard and typed in the above. That's what it looked like to me anyway. Then I choose a google translator. The answer came up " tajik" in English Then I looked up "tajik" and found that it is an ethnic group in the country of, and around,...........Tajikstan.............a country to the NE of Afghanistan, very mountainous and rugged.
Of course, I made a two assumptions here.1. That the word is Russian 2. That I identified the characters correctly. But, that gun looks like it would be used in that region doesn't it?
P.S. this is what retirement allows me to do, l.o.l

 

[BillinOregon]

Rick, your collection continues to amaze and astound me. Thanks for sharing that image of the Bedouin sheiks.
The next question is -- does anyone shoot these? What is your technique for holding them? What is the range of calibers they come in? Surely they are not rifled.

 

[toot]

Well I just had to Google "knee blunderbuss" and good gracious there are pages of them that were or are for sale or auction -- many of them described as Turkish or Ottoman. How were these fired?
I hope there is a meaningful translation of the characters but it does indeed seem possible that they are just markings. I wonder what was in the mind of the lock maker as he finished his piece.

I hope no one uses them like WW2 JAPANESE KNEE MORTERS, and break there knee??

 

[toot]

Dear Toot I got the jist of your post apart from the water table part That's got me foxed.
Regards Rudyard

a water table is the part of the shotgun that is what you see when you take the barrels off of the gun. it has all of the information on it. grade, bore DIA, choke, ETC. hope this helps. if not GOOGLE it, hope it will come up? it is the lug peice that the barrels lock into, then the forearm snaps into. good to hear from you.

 

[TFoley]

Gottit.

It is badly 'engraved' in the Devanagari dialect of Nepali - it reads - La.Ta. 9737.

Cleverer folks than I will have to figure that out.

 

[TFoley]

a water table is the part of the shotgun that is what you see when you take the barrels off of the gun. it has all of the information on it. grade, bore DIA, choke, ETC. hope this helps. if not GOOGLE it, hope it will come up? it is the lug peice that the barrels lock into, then the forearm snaps into. good to hear from you.

...and here's a good Belgian example...............

 

[toot]

TFoley, thank you so muck for the post you put up for Rudyard, that I was trying to explain to him. this is it!! now all will know what I was trying to explain. where did you find the WATER TABLE, if I may ask?

 

[toot]

that is a fantastic photo that you put up, it should be put in a STICKY, for future people who hear this word.