Any point to thin wad between powder and PRB

[larry wv]

Wasps still make nests. I try to put wasp nest or Hornet nest in between what ever I have for a hunting load. Could be loaded for weeks or years knowing me. :grin: Don't see how a wad would keep a ball from upsetting (get bigger). The sudden start would be what does that. Seems like a good idea to use a barrier on a hunting load. Larry

 

[rodwha]

Unless your hunting load were severely damaged I'm not sure if you'd notice that the last 5-10 grns were effected or not.

I've been wondering how I'd apply Gatofeo's lube to rifle patches without getting carried away. Since I have so much of the materials to make it I figure I ought to give it a go first...

 

[don hepler]

Well there is practical accuracy, and then there is target accuracy. If I can shot a 3 inch group at 50 yards, at age 62, then from a practical stand point, I should be able to shot a deer at the same range. But, if I was trying to ring all the accuracy that I can, I might start trying different things. Now, I have noticed that with light loads, say 60 grains or less with my 50 cal. the wad didn't seem to make a difference. But, with 80 grains, my patches became more burned and torn. I added the wad, and it seemed to protect the patch. Maybe I could have used a different patch material, or different lube, or even more lube, I don't know. Maybe if I get some time and the weather improves, I do some testing.

I shop at Sportsmans Warehouse, because they have the best black powder supplies, but all the small local shops, sell wads, by various manufacturers.

 

[Matt85]

ive done some testing with my 50 cal pedersoli long rifle and i can tell you at least in my rifle it doesnt affect accuracy. however, it does eliminate my need to swab between shots. my pedersoli does not like swabbing, if you swab between shots the gun with completely fail after 2-3 shots. its something to do with the crappy little powder chamber in the "patent breech". but with lubed felt wads over the powder i can fire a near unlimited shots without my barrel becoming too fouled to load the ball.

i figure it has to do with a combination of added lube from the wad and the wad pushing some of the fouling down ontop of the powder when the wad in rammed home. ive tried unlubed wads and had less effective results.

but at no point durring my tests was accuracy greatly affect. no wad, lubed wad, and a dry wad. nothing seems to make a noticable difference in accuracy

-matt.

 

[M. De Land]

I've not tried a wad in all these years as the PRB has delivered all the accuracy I could use, on it's own.
It would be worth a try for experimental purposes though. I guess I could not figure out how a wad would work behind a sphere as the edges would be bent forward around the ball and I would think not really seal anything after the powder column was fully ignited.
I do know if one is using the right thickness of cotton patching , tightly weaved there will be no holes or burn through unless the bore is very rough.
I can see some potential benefit with flat base conicals although mine are plenty accurate shot naked.
Mini's were not made to be used with wads as far as I know as it would defeat the design perimeters for skirt expansion, in my opinion.
I could see a possible benefit if grease cookies are used as we do in BP cartridge shooting. These are often used in paper patched bullets or grease bullets not caring enough lube.
Sounds like something to try just so we can learn and possibly improve. MD

 

[nkbj]

Sometimes a card or patch laid on top of the powder can be part of the recipe that works best. Sometimes if you're swabbing between each shot you can use that last patch and it makes a difference. There's a gazillion variables interacting.

 

[Paul R]

Not a rant, just my experience.
When trying to work up a hunting load for my new Rice .58 cal. jaegar barrel, I tried 3 different patch combinations,4 different lubes, 3 different balls, & numerous powder loads using 2F & 3F powder. All resulted in badly torn & twisted patches with no consistancy in accuracy. The patches were ticking & pocket drill, both measuring about .018", and .011" cotton cloth used in various combinations. For lube, I tried olive oil, lard, spit, & a blue TC lube.
Finally, running out of time & in desperation, I punched out some 5/8" leather wads, added olive oil lube, & used 1 thin patch to hold the ball in place. A final adjustment to 85 gr. 3F gave me consistant 2 " groups at 75 yards. Good enough to hunt with. Patches were now found intact & almost good enough to use again.
Now, far be it for me to say that leather wads are the be all and end all for the best accuracy from that barrel, but they did give me the confidence to use that gun for this years hunting season. However, the gods were against me & with the limited time I had to hunt this year, I never had the chance to pull the trigger on a game animal.
With the vast majority of experience on this forum telling me that I don't need that extra wad, as soon as it is comfortable enough outside to shoot, I will continue to search for that holy grail of ball, patch, lube, & powder combination that will give me the accuracy I seek. If I can eliminate that extra step of loading that wad, I will gladly do so. BUT, if the best accuracy I can wring out of that barrel is with the use of a wad, I guess I don't have to say what I will be using.
Paul

 

[ohio ramrod]

I use thin leather wads between patch/ball and powder in all of my rifles. It is especially helpfull with heavy hunting loads. :idunno:

 

[ohio ramrod]

I use thin leather wads between patch/ball and powder in all of my rifles. It is especially helpfull with heavy hunting loads. :idunno:

 

[ohio ramrod]

I use thin leather wads between patch/ball and powder in all of my rifles. It is especially helpfull with heavy hunting loads. :idunno:

 

[jdkerstetter]

The leather wads should be unnecessary. If your patch/ball combinations were correctly sized for your bore than likely there is another problem. You could have a rough bore, in which case it needs lapped.

Good luck, J.D.

 

[cynthialee]

I was haveing some problems with a couple of my rifles and I was suggested an over powder wad of some form.
I have used corn meal and thin fiber both with good results. Fixed up the issue I was haveing.

Now granted a really tight ball/patch combo is ideal and can prevent the patch burn out issue in the first place, but if you are hunting and you need a follow up shot, loading a very tight load is not a good idea. So developing a less tight patch/ball combo with a wad load that is minute of deer acurate might be a good idea.
If you are just killing paper then by all means forget the wads and find tighter patching material.

 

[rodwha]

"I was haveing some problems with a couple of my rifles and I was suggested an over powder wad of some form.
I have used corn meal and thin fiber both with good results. Fixed up the issue I was having."

Isn't that the same thing in essence?

 

[matt denison]

" A final adjustment to 85 gr. 3F gave me consistant 2 " groups at 75 yards. Good enough to hunt with..."

That is comendable, very good shooting. Whether the wad is the difference or not. :hatsoff:

 

[M. De Land]

Paul, I had the same deal happen to me in my new underhammer .45 GM barrel and I gave it a light lead slug lapping with 400 grit before threading and installing the breech plug. It took about 100 rounds of shooting to wear some of the land corner sharp off before the patches stayed in tacked. Now they could be loaded and shot again if you wanted to.
It does show how lapping maintains the as cut barrel profile even on the corners.
This is where one of the guys suggested running a Scotch brite down the bore a few times to take some of the sharp edge off the land corners.
For that purpose I think it sounds like a pretty good idea. MD

 

[cynthialee]

"I was haveing some problems with a couple of my rifles and I was suggested an over powder wad of some form.
I have used corn meal and thin fiber both with good results. Fixed up the issue I was having."

Isn't that the same thing in essence?

not at the same time

 

[Paul R]

J.D. & M.D. - I had tried lapping with scotch-brite, about a hundred strokes with frequent changes. Still no noticeable change. It may take more, or just a bunch more shooting, or just more experimenting with the other variables. Isn't that what makes this so much fun? Right now it's just too cold & the snow is too deep to be able to really give full attention to the details needed to teach me what this barrel needs.
Cynthia has it right. Using the leather wad & a thin patch gave both an accurate and an easy load.

 

[GaCop]

I'm using an Ox Yoke wad with my 58 cal PRB loads. My Ox Yoke Patches are .018" thick. Recovered patches continously show tearing when I seat the ball as recovered patches are not burned but torn at the point the ball is rammed with the short starter. I believe my problem is the sharp edge of the muzzle. A crowning/beveling may eliminate the patch tearing.

With patches tearing, I managed to get a 70 yard group of four that measured less than an inch (first clean bore shot went low below the target)firing 42 grains of T-7. This load gave me an average of 1350 fps but the ES was 130.1 and the SD was 55.8. 45 and 50 grains of T-7 yielded excellent single digit SD and low two digit ES but ended up shooting all over the place with the 45 grain load shooting the next best group of five inches, impacting low and right in a verticle string? 50 grains was all over the place

I intitally tried thinner .015" patches but they were being totally shredded even with a wad and accuracy was dismal with all loads.

Tom

 

[Shifty]

Now I am not telling you to do , but what i did to my barrel a 58 cal Hawken that i built,if you can follow my poor instructions = first insert a range rod(not your ram rod)into the bore pace a piece of tape around the rod at the end of the muzzle,remove rod devide it into 4equal parts and mark with tape,now with cleabing brush not a jag but brush wrap little strip of scoth brite around the brush then apply some valve grinding coumpound(pretty heavy)on the SB ,now put the rod into bore all the way in it will be alittle snugg ,while holding the rod centered in bore or use a centering devise,work the rod in&out to the first 1/4 mark only about 25 times, remove rod put more valve grinding compound on scotch brite,reinstall rod & work it in&out to the 1/2 mark this time,then repeat at the 3/4 mark then the full depth mark,Now after this operation remove scotch brite from brush, clean bore pretty good then place steel wool on brush but no valve gringing compound then repeat the process again changing the steel wool after each step then clean again, now remove brush from rod replace it with a cleaning jag and a piece of cleaning cloth now put a good coat of Flitz or similar polishing paste on cloth and repeat the process all over again then clean and lube the bore. I know this sounds like a lot of work but I did this with my 58 and it will shoot 3 balls into one jagged hole at 50yds it was about 6" group before, and it will do this with any load from 90to 115 grns,I use FFg Goex ,pillow tick patch,and the Mink Oil lube from track of the wolf,I also coned the barrel with one of the Woods barreling conning tools,the gun loads pretty easy& dosn't foul very bad.Like I say you can try it if you want to it works for me I do it to all my guns.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I have often used ox-yoke felt wads lubed with wonder lube in TC Hawken rifles while using Hornady great plains bullets or maxi bullets. Results are always great, they cut the group size for me in those rifles.

If using heavy hunting loads the wad will not hurt anything with PRB either.