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Nice pistol nonetheless. Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy the British revolvers of that period.
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Nice pistol alright, to parrot everyone else!
It would b einteresting to see a thread on the different rammers for these, as they vary quite a lot.
The difference between most British revolvers and N American, is that the British (as someone mentioned on the previous page) had a larger diameter cylinder than bore, and a felt wad attached to the base of the bullet or ball, fit snugly so a rammer was not needed to the same extent as with the US type, with a ball shaving off a little lead when rammed home.
Also, Adams/Tranter cylinders show some flaring at the muzzle ends very often, unlike the Colt types.
Best,
R.
It would b einteresting to see a thread on the different rammers for these, as they vary quite a lot.
The difference between most British revolvers and N American, is that the British (as someone mentioned on the previous page) had a larger diameter cylinder than bore, and a felt wad attached to the base of the bullet or ball, fit snugly so a rammer was not needed to the same extent as with the US type, with a ball shaving off a little lead when rammed home.
Also, Adams/Tranter cylinders show some flaring at the muzzle ends very often, unlike the Colt types.
Best,
R.
On the subject of English rammers, one interesting variation comes with the Webley Longspur. Taylerson identified three examples with left-handed rammers all numbered in the 900s. I have identified two more. Taylerson speculated that it was to suit left-handers. I have my doubts that southpaws would have been so indulged in the 19th century. Even in my lifetime some left-handed children had their dominant hands tied to their chairs to make them right-handed, luckily I was not subjected to this.
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very nice! I actually like the design of that rammer. Seems as if it would be very easy to use.
The loading lever being on the left side of the revolver makes perfect sense to me. On the left side, the loading lever is out of the way for a right handed person holding the gun.
Apparently, it made sense to Webley just like it did to LeMat. The loading lever (be it ever so weak) on a LeMat is also on the left side of of the pistol.
Apparently, it made sense to Webley just like it did to LeMat. The loading lever (be it ever so weak) on a LeMat is also on the left side of of the pistol.
WOW!! I have never seen one of them??
a rely piece!! thanks' for sharing it with us.
jimhallam
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The question of "Proof" is one which many people in the U.K. get wrong. The two principal items of legislation are (1) the Firearm Acts -- defining possession and (2) The Gunbarrel Proof Acts - essentially the earliest "consumer safety legislation" -- the "Society of the Mistery of Gunmakers of the City of London" (commonly called the Worhipful Company of Gunmakers) was set up in 1637 and has been at its present site OUTSIDE the City Walls since 1675.
In order to explain this I must refer to "unmentionables" -- sorry Zonie, but there is no other way.
Basically (oversimplifying a bit) any "barrelled device" which delivers a projectile is likely to be considered a "firearm" -- irrespective of age. However, there are exemptions to some of the rules... that is where "ANTIQUES" come in.
There are TWO aspects to consider .... the first is whether or not the firearm requires "Certification" to possess. These are CERTIFICATES --- not "licences" -- for which an individual must apply to his local Police Force (oops -- - sorry --- supposed to call them Police SERVICES these P.C. days).
There is UK legislation intended to stop convicted persons from owning "firearms" (including antiques and airguns) -- see link to -- Firearms Act 1968
The lowest level is a SHOTGUN CERTIFICATE -- - where the person is licenced to possess (not necessarily use). S/he can the acquire any number but they must be (in effect) notified to the who issued the certificate. Barrel over 24" and if with a magazine this firearm cannot hold more than 3. (? A bit like Massachusetts where there are 2 levels of Pistol Permit according to mag capacity.)
The next level is a FIREARM CERTIFICATE --- where the individual is authorised to acquire (and possess) each firearm, according to its specification -- e.g., someone might apply for "Two .22" rifles, a .243" rifle and a .44" muzzle-loading revolver". When acquired the details are entered onto the Certificate and both parties are required to advise the Police.
These are other classifications -- e.g., I have "Section 5 Authority" from the Home Office (U.K. "State Department"?) for a number of classes of "Prohibited Weapons" (including full-auto) -- rather like US "Class III".
In Scotland (an area of "devolved legislation) even AIRGUNS require a person to possess a Firearm Certificate.
HOWEVER, there are some exemptions for historic arms, according to their DATE of manufacture and the CHAMBERING. This is enshrined in Section 58(2) of the current Firearms Act.
As far as DATE (basically pre-WW2) that means that a UBERTI .44" Colt M1860 can only be a licenceable "Section 1" Firearm even though it is a near-copy of an original. A Southgate flint rifle in the U.K. is a licenceable firearm.
OBSOLETE CHAMBERING -- The Home Office issues a list of these. Early ignition systems are included but for breechloaders the crux is the nature of the ammunition. Provided that the person does not have ammunition s/he may, e.g., have a Webley "bulldog" in .442CF (Centre-Fire) but NOT in .450CF. There is a rebuttal presumption that the possession of ammunition indicates that the person does not possess the firearm as a "curiosity or ornament".
This makes more sense to me than the GCA68 "magic date" of the end of 1898 (I am often amazed at how frequently US dealers / collectors refer to "PRE 98", which must mean 1897.) Just look at the prices fo Win M1894 rifles ... one made in 1898 will fetch many times what one in 1899 does -- because it does not require "paper".
However, some criminals use s.58(2) revolvers -- ovbiously illegally. There was one Dealer in the UK who was buying older items in the USA, eclaring them to the US Customs as "Antique" (some were even as late as the 1950s) and doing the same when he landed in the U.K. He was also hand-laooding ammunition for selected Obsolete revolvers (.44R, M1873 French, .41Colt... ... ) and selling them, mainly to pigmentlly challenged persons. Eventually he was caught and now is serving 30 years .. . Google "Paul Edmunds"
It is likely that some calibres are likely to be removed from the s.58(2) list in the near future.
In the USA there are weasel words in the "Antique Firearm" legislation.
National Firearms Act Definitions Antique Firearm 26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)
For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. (my emphasis)
Does this imply that pre '99 Colt M1873s might no longer be "antique" -- or only if there is NO commercially made ammunition which is loaded with Black Powder?
Even in the USA there are potential problems with "Antiques". I recall a number of years ago in Maryland there were attempts to impose a State Law removing the right to own Antique Firearms because someone had committed a felony using a replica ML revolver. It is up to us all to protect our heritage against attack.
I do hope that this long post will help US citizens understand the position in the U.K.
ATB
Jim Hallam
In order to explain this I must refer to "unmentionables" -- sorry Zonie, but there is no other way.
Basically (oversimplifying a bit) any "barrelled device" which delivers a projectile is likely to be considered a "firearm" -- irrespective of age. However, there are exemptions to some of the rules... that is where "ANTIQUES" come in.
There are TWO aspects to consider .... the first is whether or not the firearm requires "Certification" to possess. These are CERTIFICATES --- not "licences" -- for which an individual must apply to his local Police Force (oops -- - sorry --- supposed to call them Police SERVICES these P.C. days).
There is UK legislation intended to stop convicted persons from owning "firearms" (including antiques and airguns) -- see link to -- Firearms Act 1968
The lowest level is a SHOTGUN CERTIFICATE -- - where the person is licenced to possess (not necessarily use). S/he can the acquire any number but they must be (in effect) notified to the who issued the certificate. Barrel over 24" and if with a magazine this firearm cannot hold more than 3. (? A bit like Massachusetts where there are 2 levels of Pistol Permit according to mag capacity.)
The next level is a FIREARM CERTIFICATE --- where the individual is authorised to acquire (and possess) each firearm, according to its specification -- e.g., someone might apply for "Two .22" rifles, a .243" rifle and a .44" muzzle-loading revolver". When acquired the details are entered onto the Certificate and both parties are required to advise the Police.
These are other classifications -- e.g., I have "Section 5 Authority" from the Home Office (U.K. "State Department"?) for a number of classes of "Prohibited Weapons" (including full-auto) -- rather like US "Class III".
In Scotland (an area of "devolved legislation) even AIRGUNS require a person to possess a Firearm Certificate.
HOWEVER, there are some exemptions for historic arms, according to their DATE of manufacture and the CHAMBERING. This is enshrined in Section 58(2) of the current Firearms Act.
As far as DATE (basically pre-WW2) that means that a UBERTI .44" Colt M1860 can only be a licenceable "Section 1" Firearm even though it is a near-copy of an original. A Southgate flint rifle in the U.K. is a licenceable firearm.
OBSOLETE CHAMBERING -- The Home Office issues a list of these. Early ignition systems are included but for breechloaders the crux is the nature of the ammunition. Provided that the person does not have ammunition s/he may, e.g., have a Webley "bulldog" in .442CF (Centre-Fire) but NOT in .450CF. There is a rebuttal presumption that the possession of ammunition indicates that the person does not possess the firearm as a "curiosity or ornament".
This makes more sense to me than the GCA68 "magic date" of the end of 1898 (I am often amazed at how frequently US dealers / collectors refer to "PRE 98", which must mean 1897.) Just look at the prices fo Win M1894 rifles ... one made in 1898 will fetch many times what one in 1899 does -- because it does not require "paper".
However, some criminals use s.58(2) revolvers -- ovbiously illegally. There was one Dealer in the UK who was buying older items in the USA, eclaring them to the US Customs as "Antique" (some were even as late as the 1950s) and doing the same when he landed in the U.K. He was also hand-laooding ammunition for selected Obsolete revolvers (.44R, M1873 French, .41Colt... ... ) and selling them, mainly to pigmentlly challenged persons. Eventually he was caught and now is serving 30 years .. . Google "Paul Edmunds"
It is likely that some calibres are likely to be removed from the s.58(2) list in the near future.
In the USA there are weasel words in the "Antique Firearm" legislation.
National Firearms Act Definitions Antique Firearm 26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)
For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. (my emphasis)
Does this imply that pre '99 Colt M1873s might no longer be "antique" -- or only if there is NO commercially made ammunition which is loaded with Black Powder?
Even in the USA there are potential problems with "Antiques". I recall a number of years ago in Maryland there were attempts to impose a State Law removing the right to own Antique Firearms because someone had committed a felony using a replica ML revolver. It is up to us all to protect our heritage against attack.
I do hope that this long post will help US citizens understand the position in the U.K.
ATB
Jim Hallam
jimhallam
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Sorry about the couple of typos ;-)
The L/H rammer such as the Webley and the Rigby on my old DADs would have allowed loading without removing the cylinder. If you could hold the pistol in your right hand and push in paper cartridges and then lever them in with your left. You could have even loaded on the move with practice. As the L/H rammer was held in place with right hand when firing there is no possibility of it dropping down and jamming as could happen with the Colt type.. OLD DOG..
Thanks for going to such lengths to explain the current position in the UK Jim.
I have been overseas for 36 years now, and never got back, (Yet!)
I have been overseas for 36 years now, and never got back, (Yet!)
Flinty Scot
40 Cal
Perhaps it was built for a Confederate order but, for some reason wasn't delivered- or deliverable.
Congratulitions for Your gorgeous revolver . Me , too, am shooting an 1854 Adams beauty , made and singned by LAC ( London Arms Company ) in competition .
It's not a CSA signed gun , but only for comparison . There were not only Colts in the ancient world ! Others , too , made great guns !
Top strap of mine is signed with " Deane&Son ,30. King William St , London Bridge " ,over 90% of original blue .
The handles of all Colts , Remingtons etc. , which I was given to handle by now , were much too narrow for me to handle comfortunately (for me) , but with the first handling of an Adams , I fell in love with it !
Most Beaumont/Adams , which I have been lucky to examine by now , had pretty poorly rifled or even pitted barrels , but most of them were , despite of this fact , real tack drivers !
For this entire one , I saved money for nearly 10 years for being able to purchase it , but I still feel , it's been worth for every month of savings !
Today , I've shot mine in Club Competition with 15 grn Swiss No.2 ( by volume ) , same amount of volume wheat grain topping and round ball .464 , covered with grease for preventing hang fire and also for lubing , and I've gained a score of 134 on international target in 25 m distance . ( 15 shots , 25m distance , free hand )
AND : I'm not really that crack shot for sure !
It's not a CSA signed gun , but only for comparison . There were not only Colts in the ancient world ! Others , too , made great guns !
Top strap of mine is signed with " Deane&Son ,30. King William St , London Bridge " ,over 90% of original blue .
The handles of all Colts , Remingtons etc. , which I was given to handle by now , were much too narrow for me to handle comfortunately (for me) , but with the first handling of an Adams , I fell in love with it !
Most Beaumont/Adams , which I have been lucky to examine by now , had pretty poorly rifled or even pitted barrels , but most of them were , despite of this fact , real tack drivers !
For this entire one , I saved money for nearly 10 years for being able to purchase it , but I still feel , it's been worth for every month of savings !
Today , I've shot mine in Club Competition with 15 grn Swiss No.2 ( by volume ) , same amount of volume wheat grain topping and round ball .464 , covered with grease for preventing hang fire and also for lubing , and I've gained a score of 134 on international target in 25 m distance . ( 15 shots , 25m distance , free hand )
AND : I'm not really that crack shot for sure !
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That is a perfectly Lovely revolver Enfield!
I am so pleased you take it out and use it, and that it performs well for you!!
Congratulations!
Richard.
I am so pleased you take it out and use it, and that it performs well for you!!
Congratulations!
Richard.
jimhallam
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Sorry, but that is incorrect.
Strictly-speaking in the UK it is an offence against the Gunbarrel Proof Acts to "transfer" a firearm which is not "Of Proof". That applies to ALL firearms, but it was (is?) common practice for antique dealers to ignore this.
However, if one is imported PERSONALLY (in checked baggage, of course) then one is the "beneficial owner" so iIt is NOT an offence to OWN one, just "transfer".
That includes Exporting. That's one reason why I had to tell one collector of early SAAs that I could not take his guns to the Vegas Show to sell for him, even 'though they are NOT "firearms" under Federal Law. He wouldn't risk them going to Proof (I could have arranged "discreet marks"), so he still has them in his collection of "Heritage Pistols" (one aspect of UK Firearms Law which allows a person to still possess "handguns" after the general ban following the Dunblane Massacre.)
I know that it is a confusing situation: In the UK, ANY antique firearm which is used - or for which then person has ammunition (even one round!) - cannot benefit from the special "Section 58" exemption -- - that is one aspect of the "Firearms Acts" ---- but PROOF comes under a different Acts entirely.
Strictly-speaking in the UK it is an offence against the Gunbarrel Proof Acts to "transfer" a firearm which is not "Of Proof". That applies to ALL firearms, but it was (is?) common practice for antique dealers to ignore this.
However, if one is imported PERSONALLY (in checked baggage, of course) then one is the "beneficial owner" so iIt is NOT an offence to OWN one, just "transfer".
That includes Exporting. That's one reason why I had to tell one collector of early SAAs that I could not take his guns to the Vegas Show to sell for him, even 'though they are NOT "firearms" under Federal Law. He wouldn't risk them going to Proof (I could have arranged "discreet marks"), so he still has them in his collection of "Heritage Pistols" (one aspect of UK Firearms Law which allows a person to still possess "handguns" after the general ban following the Dunblane Massacre.)
I know that it is a confusing situation: In the UK, ANY antique firearm which is used - or for which then person has ammunition (even one round!) - cannot benefit from the special "Section 58" exemption -- - that is one aspect of the "Firearms Acts" ---- but PROOF comes under a different Acts entirely.
