Anyone Experienced with Hardening a Frizzen?

[Pebguin]

Long time reader, first time poster here.

So I've got a frizzen here that I can't seem to get any life out of. I've got several other flintlocks, and managed to get those to shoot flames after a little bit of trial and error. This is the first one I've gotten where I can't seem to get anything out of it. Spring is nice and stiff, but not too rigid. Tried a couple of flints and angled each one a bit different, but no luck. The file test gave me some questionable results - the top 1/3 seems soft, the bottom passes, and the middle is... so so. Other frizzens I've got sound like glass sliding against the file and it glides right off. It does bite a bit on this one, and I don't get that same sound. Leads me to believe the hardening is bad.

I didn't get a picture, but the face is also rough. It's eating up the flints pretty quick.

Before you ask, I dont know the manufacturer. It's definitely a Udaipur musket from India but I don't know which distributor. Before you comment, I'm definitely aware of the India musket stigma. Definitely not Middlesex or Veteran Arms... I suspect maybe Military Heritage or Loyalist Arms.

I was wondering if anyone here has any experience working on these? To be honest, I don't really care to learn how to do it. I'd rather pay for someone who knows what they're doing to tackle the project. Do you know anyone I could send the lock or frizzen to? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

The videos below show a couple of slow motion tests. I think it's scraping pretty well. I'm using French flints from Track of the Wolf, as I don't have any Brown Bess flints onhand.

 

[Sam squanch]

Best thing is to sole the frizzen with tempered spring steel. I don’t think you can heat treat your India made frizzen, probably has steel content not agreeable to tempering. I’m sure several guys on here will do it. If you are handy , it’s not that hard to do.

 

[Sam squanch]

I made this insert . It’s made to be replaceable in this type of lock. Thanks Dave person for the instructions!

 

[Pebguin]

I made this insert . It’s made to be replaceable in this type of lock. Thanks Dave person for the instructions!

Now THAT is a spark.

Thanks for the advice. Never heard of that, and I think that sounds like a better solution than case hardening. From reading other forum posts, it sounds like most of these cheap Indian muskets are only have a thin hardening to begin with. This is one of many I got as seconds from the set of a TV show, and each one has been abused by the production team in some way. I'm sure that the case hardening on this bess is just worn through.



I found this tutorial. This project looks to be outside of my capabilities, but I could see it being easy if you know what you're doing.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
There are really only 2 reliable things you can do. Case harden it or sole it. You can try heating to bright orange-red color and quenching in oil or brine but I have limited success with that when hardening India-made parts. I think their steel alloys vary a lot. Now I don't bother with straight heat treating and go right to case hardening. The frizzen needs to be packed in charcoal within a metal box or tube that has a cover, heated to 1575-1600 degrees for 2-3 hours and then the entire pack quenched in water or brine. Then it is a good idea to temper the frizzen for 1 hour at 375 degrees. That will work and the sparking will last because the case depth is deep enough to present high carbon steel to the flint for a long time. The other very reliable method is to face the frizzen with a hardened steel sole. I cut a piece of 1075 or 1095 steel to fit and then harden it by heating to bright orange-red and quenching in Canola oil or brine. Then I tin the surface of the frizzen with low temperature silver bearing solder, flux the back of the sole and lay it on the frizzen. I heat from below with a propane torch until the solder flows and the sole sets in place. Then just let it cool. Unlike riveting on a sole, the soldered sole can be easily replaced if needed. If applying a sole, make sure the extra thickness of the battery face will clear the pan fence.

dave

 

[Sam squanch]

I don’t waste time on hardening the whole frizzen anymore on a plain working gun, I just sole it. Easier and saves fuel.

 

[dave_person]

I don’t waste time on hardening the whole frizzen anymore on a plain working gun, I just sole it. Easier and saves fuel.

Hi Sam,
That is good advice but there are many locks on which the pan fence is too close to the face of the battery to fit a sole unless the sole is shortened so it no longer covers the bottom of the battery. I don't like that solution for lack of space because it looks kludgy.

dave

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Case harden it or sole it ... I cut a piece of 1075 or 1095 steel to fit ...

What THICKNESS Dave?

Thanks in advance!

 

[deerstalkert]

is i just me or does the frizzen spring look weak in the OP's video. lots of bounce.

 

[Pebguin]

is i just me or does the frizzen spring look weak in the OP's video. lots of bounce.

Possibly. It feels very stiff. It's also in super slow motion, so that bounce is something I never noticed without it. I would think most all frizzens do this under slow motion, but I don't have any proof of that. This is actually one of the more stiff feeling springs I've got, and the less stiff feeling ones haven't caused any issues yet.

 

[Sam squanch]

Hi Sam,
That is good advice but there are many locks on which the pan fence is too close to the face of the battery to fit a sole unless the sole is shortened so it no longer covers the bottom of the battery. I don't like that solution for lack of space because it looks kludgy.

dave

Good advice! For a historical reproduction, or a nice custom gun, yes, lt looks dumb. And should be done correctly. For a CVA, or beater pedersoli or Indian gun, owned by someone who can’t get primers for his inline… easier is better.

 

[Sam squanch]

Everyone should switch over to miquelets with replaceable frizzen inserts! Historically correct and easy!

 

[rich pierce]

I find that regular crosscut hand saw blades are a good thickness and have enough carbon to be good for re-soling frizzens. I generally grind some off the frizzen face to keep the sole from hitting the fence.

 

[pacherokee54]

Years ago I was given a 45 cal Kentucky long rifle. Can't remember the maker but it wasn't a really good one, but heck it was free. Well the Frizzen didn't spark very well. I believe that I found instructions in an older Dixie Gun Works catalog that said to wrap the Frizzen in a piece of leather then wrap it in tin, then place it in a wood fire for about 45 minutes afterwards quench it in oil.
Well long story short it worked out great.

 

[Mike in FL]

What is sole?
What is misguelet?
Thanks?

 

[Sam squanch]

soul?!?… I sold mine years ago… sole on a frizzen is a thin overlay of better steel over the original flint striking or scraping face of the original frizzen. Some frizzens are made of cast steel or forged steel that don’t have very good sparking qualities. Hence, adding a thin sole, like re soling a shoe. A miquelet lock is a Spanish style lock with the mainspring on the outside of the lock plate. Usually heavy duty to get great sparks from dull flints. I’ll get a picture for you…

 

[Sam squanch]

Here’s one..

 

[The Damned Yankee]

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