Appropriate lock for a southern moutnain rifle

[Jim-Iowa]

Ken I'll sure be asking Steve about them.
As I mentioned on ALR I messed up the inlet on my sideplate and need some ideas for a slightly larger plate to cover up my mistake.
A few pictures would help.I'm sure he will have some ideas.

 

[44-henry]

All I am saying is that there is no way that anybody can positively say it wasn't ever done. You can have your opinion and it may even be right, but in the end that is all it is, your opinion. I personally don't care for the way a Siler lock looks on this type of rifle and I suspect it was never done, but I can't prove it and neither can you. For all I know the one rifle that would make everyone wrong burned in a fire or fell into a lake. People make educated guesses when it comes to history, but until somebody invents a time machine that is all they will ever be.

 

[rich pierce]

There's a lot of data, a lot of guns of this type, and no known examples with a 1770's Germanic style lock. Not sure it matters if it was done once or not- most of us want to portray what was commonly done and not the exceptions. A 1770's to 1780's German lock doesn't fit this type of gun. It'll make a fine gun, work great, but won't be "like they were" in a major way.

 

Alex--If you found the one gun that would prove everyone wrong, would that change the advice folks like Cooner and Okwaho have given. I think not. If one guy scavenged the parts off a 1770's PA gun and restocked them on a 1840's TN hog rifle, it still doesn't change the fact that Okwaho's sample of over a thousand original southern mountain rifles contains not a single Germanic lock. If you want to find an exception you probably can if you look hard enough. The question relates to what was commonly used.

Jim--I too am jealous about being able to hang out at Bookie's.

Not-so-round-German--You make a nice lock outta that gunmaker's kit. Heck of a job.

Sean

 

[Old40Rod]

Check out the reshaped Chamber's ketland on the .40 bean Packdog has up for sale on the forum... nice looking rifle. I don't know how much room there is on the ketland plate for reshaping, but there must be some.
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/1478/cat/9[/url]

 

[Mike Brooks]

All I am saying is that there is no way that anybody can positively say it wasn't ever done. You can have your opinion and it may even be right, but in the end that is all it is, your opinion. I personally don't care for the way a Siler lock looks on this type of rifle and I suspect it was never done, but I can't prove it and neither can you. For all I know the one rifle that would make everyone wrong burned in a fire or fell into a lake. People make educated guesses when it comes to history, but until somebody invents a time machine that is all they will ever be.

Besides, it's always fun to make up the story of shoulda, woulda, coulda, mighta happened. :haha:

 

[Okwaho]

Alex--If you found the one gun that would prove everyone wrong, would that change the advice folks like Cooner and Okwaho have given. I think not. If one guy scavenged the parts off a 1770's PA gun and restocked them on a 1840's TN hog rifle, it still doesn't change the fact that Okwaho's sample of over a thousand original southern mountain rifles contains not a single Germanic lock. If you want to find an exception you probably can if you look hard enough. The question relates to what was commonly used.

Jim--I too am jealous about being able to hang out at Bookie's.

Not-so-round-German--You make a nice lock outta that gunmaker's kit. Heck of a job.

Sean

Sean,thanks for the kind words. As I recall,I stated that there was ALWAYS the possibility of a Germanic lock being used and gave examples.I remember some 45 years ago I saw a Tennessee style rifle in Corinth,Mississippi with,{as I recall},a Harper's Ferry marked lock which appeared to be original to the gun.It was priced about $45.00 but I didn't buy it.Several months ago I sold a Ca.1790-1810 smooth rifle rifle with a W. Ketland fowler lock{see TRS catalogue},a probable Ketland guard,and stepped butt piece.I have always liked the composite Rev.War muskets and I have seen several composite rifles.As Sean correctly pointed out,there were many examples of salvaged parts used on various types of guns.I have a gun in the process of restoration with a round barrel of unknown origin,a cut back guard installed backwards,and an East India Co. original flintlock correctly marked 1779.The stock is curly maple without a butt piece and has a Brown Bess configuration with a beaver tail carved at the tang.It is missing much of the forestock.What does all this prove; simply that there are all kinds of crazy mixed up guns out there and I guess I have seen a slew of them.The original question pertained to the appropriate lock for a Southern mountain rifle and I stand by my opinion that the classic Tennessee/Western North Carolina mountain rifles were universally made with non Germanic locks despite the precarved kits cut for the Siler lock.A cursory scan of "Longrifles of North Carolina" {1968}by John Bivens does not show any Germanic locks with the possible exception of the double lid "peanut hull" box which is possibly of Virginia origin.ALL the mountain rifles illustrated by Bivens are English style locks of the 19th century.

The classic Tennessee rifles such as those made by the Beans,Groses,Lawing, Wilhelm and the Bulls all feature English style locks including some Ketland locks. The silver mounted matched pair Baxter Bean pistols in the Tennessee State Museum and illustrated in "Thoughts On The American Flintlock Pistol"{1959,1974}PP.50-51 by S.E.Dyke feature round tailled Ketland locks and probably date to the second quarter of the 19th century.These are two of the only four Tennessee made Kentucky pistols of which I am aware.The other two are a pair of Tennessee pistols signed R Bean {most likely Robert Bean a brother of Baxter} made about the same time. I haven't seen these pistols and got my information from the late Robin Hale who located them separately and reunited the pair after a long separation.

I hope these bits of trivia help those who are interested in the Tennessee/Western North Carolina rifles.
Tom Patton

 

[Packdog]

Thanks Tom. I always enjoy reading your post!
Ken

 

Here's two examples of whats been talked about

and the two together

You can see that the first picture has a Siler lock, that is very Germanic in nature, and not modified in any way. It was sold by Track, as a classic Tenn, Mtn rifle, but it also has a short tang, which is less common on Mountian rifles.
The second is also the same style of Siler lock, but has been modified by Steve Bookout, to give it English styling, and more correct for a rifle built in colonies/states that have more English artisans, and skilled trades. The third pic shows the difference. Another good example would be if Packdog posted a pic of Big-nosed Katie, which he just sold. She's a beauty.If you don't have the skills to modify a lock like this, the Late Ketland would be an excellant choice. The Bookout gun Miss Maggie is 37 cal., and has a 48 inch hand forged barrel. Both typical features of a Southern Mountian Rifle. The other pictured rifle has a swamped 38 inch barrel in 50 cal. My bookout is HC in every way, as his family has been smithing these type of rifles for generations. The 50 cal. is a nice fantasy gun that shoots like a dream, and makes a great brush deer gun. As has been stated, to build a proper Tennessee, or Southern Mountian rifle one needs to do some homework, and not just take someones word on it. Also it seems you have to give it a cute name. That's my two cents on it, so don't nobody offer me a penny for my thoughts.

Bill

 

[Packdog]

Miss Maggie is a dream and great example of a proper Southern Mt. rifle. I'd love to see a set of pics of just her. Pleeeese!

Here's a modified Late Ketland. Very simply rounding off the little tit on the tail.

 

[Stophel]

Ken, you did really well on that gun! :wink:

 

Maggie's a slick looking gun, as is Big Nose Kate (great name, too). Bill are you sure Bookie didn't start out with the Davis Ketland on that one? The pan, roller frizzen and bridle look like the Davis lock to me. Either way, that's a damned fine gun.

Okwaho, I hope someday to have handled as many original guns and have a fraction of your experience and knowledge on the subject. Maybe one of these days we'll have to talk about those Bogle guns. I've always had a soft spot for them and want to build a proper one one of these days.

Sean

 

Here's the lock panel on an original soddy-daisy rifle, gosh it's an english style lock.

Packdog, I'll take pic's of Miss Maggie, and put it in another thread.

Bill

 

[Jim-Iowa]

Bill if you get down this way at thanksgiving and plan to be at Bookies some evening. Let me know what date, I would like to meet you in person.

 

Very nice, Bill.

Sean

 

Jim, how does next Wednesday sound, what time do you meet at Bookies. Can you PT me directions from Knoxville.

Bill

 

[Packdog]

If you fellers is going to talk about going to Bookie's, you need to keep it to yourself. The tears are going to short my keyboard out. :cursing:
UUUgh! I wana go.
Ken
Bill,
I can't wait to see them pics of Miss Maggie.

 

[Packdog]

Bill,
Is that a Clements Soddy rifle? Patchbox? If so, what does the release spring look like? Nailed in or screwed?
To many questions I know.
Thanks,
Ken

 

Ken, not sure if it's a Clements, but here's some more pic's. I'll email you the whole set.
Patchbox area

 

[Jim-Iowa]

I usually get over there around 6:30 and stay till around 8:00. Started inletting my but plate tonight. I'll send you a personal message with directions. Look forward to meeting you.