Are movie prop revolvers fully functional reproductions?

[rshveyda]

We all know there are four redundant rules that will keep you safe. I'm not going to repeat them. But, on a film set, they often violate at least the first two on a routine bases when filming scenes. That's why it's so darn vital that a prop master be on hand to double and triple check that the gun is unloaded at all times. That the gun never get's passed from person to person without being repeatedly checked. AND THERE SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY ZERO LIVE AMMO ANYWHERE ON SET EVER! And, if the gun is ever to be used with blanks, that the barrel is visually inspected to confirm there are no obstructions at all that could turn into deadly projectiles when the blanks are fired.

Also, if dummy rounds with bullets are used in a revolver so it looks read from the front, they have to be real dummy rounds, not just dummy rounds made by removing the powder, leaving the live primers on and jamming the bullets loosely back into the cartridge. Like what happened with Brandon Lee when he was killed.

Further, no gun loaded or unloaded gun should ever be pointed at an actor or the camera/cameraperson unless the scene specifically calls for it. Even then there are clear bulletproof Lexan sheets that can be used for extra safety. When shooting such scenes an armorer should be there to immediately check and confirm the gun is unloaded prior to the shot, then immediately take possession of the weapon from the actor as soon as they call "cut!" And, when the actor first takes possession of the unloaded or blank loaded weapon, they should know how to confirm the condition of the gun rather than simply taking the armorer's word for it.

It sounds like they got lazy and assumed someone else had confirmed the gun empty because that was there job. At then the gun was left lying on a cart where who knows who loaded it with live ammo for who knows what reason. Again, live ammo should never be anywhere near a set.

Here is a great interview with Dean Cain explaining safety protocols on the set when firearms are involved.

Damn, regardless of your politics and/or love for Mr. Baldwin, a young wife and mother lost her life and another person was wounded. As firearms enthusiasts and compassionate human beings we owe it to those involved to try use this terrible tragedy to spark a wider conversation about gun safety. Guns don't kill people, but if you don't treat them with respect a careless individual very well may.

 

[rshveyda]

Holy moly, is there ever some disturbing reports coming out about the armorer. I've done a bit of photography on various film sets over the years and always thought being a movie armorer would be a dream job. A very serious job, but tons of fun. I guess sometimes you get a job based on who you know and not what you know. Not the best hiring method for such a safety critical job.

"The prop gun that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on a New Mexico movie set had been used by crew members offsite for fun, a new report claims. The gun, which was fired by Alec Baldwin on the set of the movie “Rust,” may have even been loaded with live rounds when it was used for what was essentially target practice, TMZ reported."

And...

"The “inexperienced” armorer in charge of weapons on set of Alec Baldwin’s movie “Rust” had given a gun to an 11-year-old actress without checking properly for safety, a report said.
Hannah Gutierrez Reed, 24, daughter of prominent Hollywood armorer Thell Reed, was head armorer on set in Santa Fe where Baldwin fired a prop gun loaded with a live round, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounding director Joel Souza.
Gutierrez-Reed’s alleged misstep happened on the set of the upcoming Nicholas Cage film, “The Old Way” and temporarily halted filming, sources told The Daily Beast.
“She was reloading the gun on the ground, where there were pebbles and stuff,” one source told the outlet. “We didn’t see her check it, we didn’t know if something got in the barrel or not.”
Gutierrez-Reed reportedly handed the gun to child actress Ryan Kiera Armstrong, forcing concerned crew members to intervene, the report said. The gun was then checked for barrel obstruction, according to the sources.
“She was a bit careless with the guns, waving it around every now and again,” a source said.
Last month, Guitierrez- Reed said on a podcast that she was “nervous” about her abilities as an armorer while she was working on “The Old Way” — her first experience as head armorer.
“You know, I was really nervous about it at first, and I almost didn’t take the job because I wasn’t sure if I was ready … but, doing it, like, it went really smoothly,” she said last month on the Voices of the West podcast."

 

[Artificer]

Holy moly, is there ever some disturbing reports coming out about the armorer. I've done a bit of photography on various film sets over the years and always thought being a movie armorer would be a dream job. A very serious job, but tons of fun. I guess sometimes you get a job based on who you know and not what you know. Not the best hiring method for such a safety critical job.

"The prop gun that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on a New Mexico movie set had been used by crew members offsite for fun, a new report claims. The gun, which was fired by Alec Baldwin on the set of the movie “Rust,” may have even been loaded with live rounds when it was used for what was essentially target practice, TMZ reported."

And...

"The “inexperienced” armorer in charge of weapons on set of Alec Baldwin’s movie “Rust” had given a gun to an 11-year-old actress without checking properly for safety, a report said.
Hannah Gutierrez Reed, 24, daughter of prominent Hollywood armorer Thell Reed, was head armorer on set in Santa Fe where Baldwin fired a prop gun loaded with a live round, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounding director Joel Souza.
Gutierrez-Reed’s alleged misstep happened on the set of the upcoming Nicholas Cage film, “The Old Way” and temporarily halted filming, sources told The Daily Beast.
“She was reloading the gun on the ground, where there were pebbles and stuff,” one source told the outlet. “We didn’t see her check it, we didn’t know if something got in the barrel or not.”
Gutierrez-Reed reportedly handed the gun to child actress Ryan Kiera Armstrong, forcing concerned crew members to intervene, the report said. The gun was then checked for barrel obstruction, according to the sources.
“She was a bit careless with the guns, waving it around every now and again,” a source said.
Last month, Guitierrez- Reed said on a podcast that she was “nervous” about her abilities as an armorer while she was working on “The Old Way” — her first experience as head armorer.
“You know, I was really nervous about it at first, and I almost didn’t take the job because I wasn’t sure if I was ready … but, doing it, like, it went really smoothly,” she said last month on the Voices of the West podcast."

Good Info, rshveyda.

I was around when the son of a dear friend of mine in the Marine Corps grew up. He also came into the NM Armorer's field in the Marine Corps in later years and became a pretty good one. He chose not to make it a career and went to Trinidad, CO for their 4 year Gunsmithing BA degree. Afterwards, he also became an Armorer in the Film/TV Industry for about a year and a half.

There is a HUGE amount of stress in that job. He got the job as a head Armorer because on more than one occasion he quickly fixed a firearm that malfunctioned and saved many thousands to tens of thousands of dollars in production costs, with everyone else not being held up too long because of the gun. The Horror stories he told of Actors who had little or no knowledge of safe handling of firearms, their careless attitude before, during and after filming, plus their disdain for learning basic things, were amazing. He eventually decided the good money just wasn't worth it after the untold number of times that he looked down the barrel of a gun carelessly held by Actors.

But even with everything you wrote, the final responsibility for the homicide and wounding was in Baldwin's Hands.

Further as the Production Manager, Baldwin was also responsible for hiring competent workers and that certainly included the Armorers.

I would not be surprised at all if Baldwin escapes criminal responsibility, just because he is a star, BUT he's going to have to pay a LOT of money for Law Suits.

Gus

 

[smoothshooter]

Heaven help them if New Mexico's laws are more lax than California.

There is no reason to believe California would have any jurisdiction.

 

[smoothshooter]

Good Info, rshveyda.

I was around when the son of a dear friend of mine in the Marine Corps grew up. He also came into the NM Armorer's field in the Marine Corps in later years and became a pretty good one. He chose not to make it a career and went to Trinidad, CO for their 4 year Gunsmithing BA degree. Afterwards, he also became an Armorer in the Film/TV Industry for about a year and a half.

There is a HUGE amount of stress in that job. He got the job as a head Armorer because on more than one occasion he quickly fixed a firearm that malfunctioned and saved many thousands to tens of thousands of dollars in production costs, with everyone else not being held up too long because of the gun. The Horror stories he told of Actors who had little or no knowledge of safe handling of firearms, their careless attitude before, during and after filming, plus their disdain for learning basic things, were amazing. He eventually decided the good money just wasn't worth it after the untold number of times that he looked down the barrel of a gun carelessly held by Actors.

But even with everything you wrote, the final responsibility for the homicide and wounding was in Baldwin's Hands.

Further as the Production Manager, Baldwin was also responsible for hiring competent workers and that certainly included the Armorers.

I would not be surprised at all if Baldwin escapes criminal responsibility, just because he is a star, BUT he's going to have to pay a LOT of money for Law Suits.

Gus

Baldwin will serve no jail time and there will be no felony conviction.

 

[user 48702]

There is no reason to believe California would have any jurisdiction.

Never had a reason to believe that they would, just stating that hopefully, New Mexico strongly enforces their laws on the books; whereas, California is lax and does not.

 

[user 48702]

Baldwin will serve no jail time and there will be no felony conviction.

"So let it be written, so let it be done"

 

[Tumbledown]

Why on a movie set during a break would anyone load a prop gun with live ammo?

Because they want to go play Cowboy.

 

[Tumbledown]

Holy moly, is there ever some disturbing reports coming out about the armorer. I've done a bit of photography on various film sets over the years and always thought being a movie armorer would be a dream job. A very serious job, but tons of fun. I guess sometimes you get a job based on who you know and not what you know. Not the best hiring method for such a safety critical job.

"The prop gun that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on a New Mexico movie set had been used by crew members offsite for fun, a new report claims. The gun, which was fired by Alec Baldwin on the set of the movie “Rust,” may have even been loaded with live rounds when it was used for what was essentially target practice, TMZ reported."

And...

"The “inexperienced” armorer in charge of weapons on set of Alec Baldwin’s movie “Rust” had given a gun to an 11-year-old actress without checking properly for safety, a report said.
Hannah Gutierrez Reed, 24, daughter of prominent Hollywood armorer Thell Reed, was head armorer on set in Santa Fe where Baldwin fired a prop gun loaded with a live round, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounding director Joel Souza.
Gutierrez-Reed’s alleged misstep happened on the set of the upcoming Nicholas Cage film, “The Old Way” and temporarily halted filming, sources told The Daily Beast.
“She was reloading the gun on the ground, where there were pebbles and stuff,” one source told the outlet. “We didn’t see her check it, we didn’t know if something got in the barrel or not.”
Gutierrez-Reed reportedly handed the gun to child actress Ryan Kiera Armstrong, forcing concerned crew members to intervene, the report said. The gun was then checked for barrel obstruction, according to the sources.
“She was a bit careless with the guns, waving it around every now and again,” a source said.
Last month, Guitierrez- Reed said on a podcast that she was “nervous” about her abilities as an armorer while she was working on “The Old Way” — her first experience as head armorer.
“You know, I was really nervous about it at first, and I almost didn’t take the job because I wasn’t sure if I was ready … but, doing it, like, it went really smoothly,” she said last month on the Voices of the West podcast."

I hope she never works a day in Hollywood again!

 

[tommygun]

negligent homicide

 

[smoothshooter]

Never had a reason to believe that they would, just stating that hopefully, New Mexico strongly enforces their laws on the books; whereas, California is lax and does not.

I agree, but am concerned about two things :
A change of venue
Two tiered justice system ( Lefties are not held to the same standards of behavior as conservatives )

At least this should cost him a lot of money even after the insurance pays off.

 

[Tenring]

Baldwin is a California known Gun Hater any way so he probably was ignorant to the fact that the gun was even loaded or how you would load it to begin with.

 

[pmccoywss]

Are movie prop revolvers fully functional reproductions?

The only one I have inspected was a Colt Peacemaker. The frame, grip, and cylinder were as original, but the barrel had been replaced with one made from much lighter metal (like pot metal) and had a sprue that went through it from side-to-side about half way down. It was obviously well used, but was meant for blanks only.

Blanks come in low/medium/high power loading (to give louder bang and more flash), and I suspect a lot of high power blanks COULD weaken the cross sprue.

In any event, it is the person using any tool who is responsible to the results of such use.

With firearms of any kind, ignoring any of the four first rules (much less ALL of them) is irresponsible..

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Mr. Foreman, have you reached a verdict? "Yes your Honor...Guilty on all counts".

 

[JamesA]

If alec baldwin had an (R) associated with his name, he would still be in jail and all the anti-gun twits would be on every daytime gab fest show and late night whine show currently in production. Since he is a hollyweird actor, he will most likely get his hand slapped and the armorer will serve some serious time. She is expendable. Baldwin is just too precious to be punished.

Let's go Brandon (this has nothing to do with the story, it just seems appropriate. )

 

[Joe B.]

In the very last episode of Perry Mason, 1966 "Final Fade-out", a live round is put in the prop gun Peacemaker killing the obnoxious star of the Western series. Dick Clark's (yes, that Dick Clark) character did the bullet switch.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Blank loads are dangerous and potentially deadly at close range. Load up a gun with a hard cardboard wad and shoot it at a close range object. You may be surprised at the damage that occurs. And no matter what a gun is loaded with, safety procedures still apply. Do not point any gun at something you do not intend to destroy.

AMEN, Bro.

 

[tenngun]

Are movie prop revolvers fully functional reproductions?

I am looking for opinions about the accident in New Mexico.

I know nothing about what they use now.
If you look at old westerns, before 1940, you will see a wide variety of old west guns. They were all real. By the 40s stock became lower as many old guns went in to metal drives. So prop department had colt peace makers and Winchester ‘73s

 

[josie wales]

In the 20 year run of GUNSMOKE Matt Dillon "killed" 165 ( 158 men and 7 women ).He was shot over 50 times. It goes to show you when you give a gun to a liberal douche such as Baldwin people really die. I believe IMHO this was not an accident and I hope Baldwin will be charged. (negligent homicide at the least)

 

[josie wales]

Granted Baldwin is a despicable human being (I'm being generous) that has his egocentric head so far up his butt that lump in his throat is his nose but the PD completed their investigation and the DA determined Baldwin is not criminally culpable. That said I hope the families of the victims sue him into perpetual poverty.

You are being very generous! Baldwin is a douche that smells his own farts.