Are movie prop revolvers fully functional reproductions?

[Okie Hog]

The weapon used in that disaster had been fired earlier in the day by actors/staff.

1. Someone neglected to unload the weapon after firing.

2. Assistant director Halls yelled "cold gun" as he handed the weapon to Baldwin. Halls had neglected to confirm the weapon was safe.

3. Baldwin neglected to confirm the weapon was safe.

"The Santa Fe Sheriff's Office executed two search warrants on the set of Rust. In one affidavit, a detective stated that during filming, Assistant Director Halls "grabbed one of three 'prop-guns' that was set-up by the Armorer, which was on a cart." Halls allegedly handed the "prop-gun to Baldwin and as he did so, he "yelled 'Cold Gun,' indicating the prop-gun did not have any live rounds," the affidavit says."

Everything We Know About the Shooting on Alec Baldwin's Movie Set - E! Online (eonline.com)

 

[BadDaditood]

Depends. Blank guns only are safest for firing because will not accept real bullets due to different caliber chambers.

Prop guns built for blanks also have a steel transverse bar blocking the center of the bore, if you could chamber a real live round it would be real messy, probably pulling the gun out of the shooters hand and sending the whole mess downrange.
There were 3 Colt replicas in the cart, a rubber one, a blanks only one and a real one. The AD grabbed the only real one without checking it and announced “cold gun!”
The reason that young mother died was a lethal combination of egos, chaotic unprofessionalism, and GREED.
The morning of her last day on earth her union camera crew walked out citing (in a written letter) breach of contract for accommodations, working conditions, overlong hours, irregular breaks, three weeks with no pay, unsafe sets including unsafe gun handling.
They were told to leave the location immediately or they would be removed.
They left and while waiting for non union local replacements everyone had the morning off.
My unofficial hunch is that somebody “borrowed” that Colt to go plinking in the desert. That would NEVER happen on a Union show. Somehow that Colt made it back on set with a live round still in it. That would also NEVER happen on a real movie. During rehearsal the “boss” actor, producer Baldwin calls for a gun. The 2nd AD runs and grabs the Real Colt from the cart without checking the cylinder announcing “cold gun”! (Again, that would, should NEVER happen, he should have to go through the Armorer before touching any weapon on her cart) As he hands it to Baldwin. A$$hat Baldwin practices a crossdraw for the scene, aims it directly at the DP Hutchins and pulls the trigger. That should NEVER happen ANYWHERE with any firearm, empty or not.
Industry Standard for the Studios has been 15 degrees forever. Scene rehearsal, camera angles make it look like the guns are pointed at people. Movie Magic! You never aim directly at a person. The scene probably called for him to aim at the camera, which, when rolling the DP and Director would be watching monitors in “video village” nowhere near the set.
She died for Greedy bloodsucking producers on an unprofessional chaotic movie crewed by too many unqualified people in too many important positions.
I have offered to come out of retirement and go to New Mexico to build as many gallows as producers on that show if they promise to use them.
Gee do I sound bitter? Sorry ;-)

 

[pooch156]

Ruling out gun malfunction here. It was a .45 Colt revolver (not .45 ACP). I am assuming a single action. I own a Ruger Super Blackhawk in both .45 Colt and .44 Special. One must knowingly cock the hammer and knowingly pull the trigger. The actual slug was recovered. It was not a blank cartridge. Usual bullet weight for a .45 Colt is around 250 gr.. Leaves a real big hole. They had people walk off the set due to safety reasons and rightfully so. I wouldn't have gotten anywhere near that site. At the very least the armorer AND Baldwin should be charged with unpremeditated murder. This is disgusting. I'm 69 years old. I started shooting when I was six. I always knew if and when one of my firearms was loaded. Even with my flintlocks when I'm done hunting at the end of the day I discharge the gun. I don't care who hands me a gun, I'm going to check it. Those people have about as much common sense as a bag of hammers!

 

[user 51067]

Ruling out gun malfunction here. It was a .45 Colt revolver (not .45 ACP). I am assuming a single action. I own a Ruger Super Blackhawk in both .45 Colt and .44 Special. One must knowingly cock the hammer and knowingly pull the trigger. The actual slug was recovered. It was not a blank cartridge. Usual bullet weight for a .45 Colt is around 250 gr.. Leaves a real big hole. They had people walk off the set due to safety reasons and rightfully so. I wouldn't have gotten anywhere near that site. At the very least the armorer AND Baldwin should be charged with unpremeditated murder. This is disgusting. I'm 69 years old. I started shooting when I was six. I always knew if and when one of my firearms was loaded. Even with my flintlocks when I'm done hunting at the end of the day I discharge the gun. I don't care who hands me a gun, I'm going to check it. Those people have about as much common sense as a bag of hammers!

And yet, the general populace continues to support them my viewing the garbage they produce. Sad, very sad.

 

[Red Owl]

I don't know why law enforcement just didn't check the finger prints on the cartridge that was a live round. Seems simple enough.

 

[user 51067]

I don't know why law enforcement just didn't check the finger prints on the cartridge that was a live round. Seems simple enough.

That would only be one component of the series of events. All foolishness aside (and not to be exclusively on the "bash Baldwin bandwagon"), the ultimate responsibility lies with the person who pulled the trigger. While others may have contributed to this unfortunate event, HIS actions caused the ending.

 

[Brazos John]

Unfortunately, none of us are the lawyers who are going to make baskets-full of money when this goes to court(s)!

 

[user 51067]

Unfortunately, none of us are the lawyers who are going to make baskets-full of money when this goes to court(s)!

Absolutely TRUE! Perhaps (as this case is of such notoriety) the incident will "hammer home" the absolute necessity for firearms safety to be taught in some structured manner to everyone! Those not so instructed should NEVER handle a firearm. While having an "operators license" for firearms is a bit draconian and "left wing," something should be done in the way of training to replace what once was a natural right of passage to our youth. Leaving safety to arrogant and uncaring thespians is weak and obviously dangerous.

 

[Brokennock]

I don't know why law enforcement just didn't check the finger prints on the cartridge that was a live round. Seems simple enough.

Waste of time. Fingerprints are a lot more fragile than t.v. shows and movies would have us believe.
Is it possible to get a usable print off the case? Yes. But is it likely? No.

Also, in my opinion, it is completely irrelevant information.
All this nonsense about the armourer, the cast or crew target shooting, etc. is just a smoke screen.
Baldwin pulled the trigger of a gun pointed at another human being, a gun that he did not personally check the condition of. He is responsible for that person's death and the other person's wounds. Period.
Negligent homicide.

Funny how quickly we have abandoned the concept of him being charged criminally and gone along with the narrative that it will never happen so focus on the civil case possibilities.
If a police officer or other non-Hollywood type had done this, the court of public opinion would be screaming loud and long and there would most certainly be criminal charges. We have seen criminal charges brought against people who committed no crime, and there was never any evidence of a crime, based purely on public pressure to charge the person. But, not in this case.....

 

[user 48702]

Waste of time. Fingerprints are a lot more fragile than t.v. shows and movies would have us believe.
Is it possible to get a usable print off the case? Yes. But is it likely? No.

Plus, reports are that the live round had already been removed from the weapon prior to police arrival, therefore the evidence had already been contaminated.

 

[Crow-Feather]

2 questions I have: ( someone may have asked & I may have missed them....)

1. Why is there live ammo on a movie set anyway?

2. The camera girl & another behind the scenes person was hit.
Why on earth Is Baldwin shooting the prop gun at them & not at another actor in front of a camera?

I bet this story gets swept under the nearest bear rug in New Mexico.

View attachment 101019

Bullet went through the woman and hit the other .... one shot. What is interesting is what the next project the woman killed was planning to do. It would be a reason to be shot by a political person.

 

[pooch156]

I don't know why law enforcement just didn't check the finger prints on the cartridge that was a live round. Seems simple enough.

Oh, I'm sure that they have.

 

[MSW]

warning: tirade follows:

we hear the words "prop gun" over and over ... why is this?

in an attempt to differentiate the weapon from one of my nasty violent icky "real guns" ... you see, the stuff in my safe is for violent, despotic, testosterone poisoned, bigoted, oppression of the victims of our paternalistic and mis- structured society. the "prop gun" is really just a make- believe thing that's used strictly to entertain. Too bad about the nice lady, but bad stuff will, on occasion, happen to good people.

we hear "accident" ad nauseum ... why is this?

because it removes any stain of responsibility from Alec Baldwin, the anti- gun darling of the left. despite the already demonstrable fact that, as the producer, he allowed conditions on the set of his movie to deteriorate to the point that the overwhelming majority of the union support staff walked off of the set in response to unsafe and abusive working conditions (including obviously non- existent gun safety). They were replaced with "locals," who were called "scabs" where i grew up.

because it removes any stain of responsibility from Alec Baldwin, the anti- gun darling of the left. despite the already demonstrable fact that he hired (at considerable cost savings, i would posit), an armorer who was clearly not up to the task, and whos incompetence lead to the death of an innocent woman.

because it removes any stain of responsibility from Alec Baldwin, the anti- gun darling of the left. despite any stretch of common sense, allowed live ammunition on set. this was apparently mixed with blank ammunition and "dummy" rounds. wtf? now if you want to go shooting in the desert, i suppose that's OK, if you know what else might be in the impact area. (although the complaints of the working conditions and hours call into question as to who would have had the spare time to go 'plinking'.) last i checked, live ammo isn't supposed to be on the set, so if some enthusiast want to shoot, he or she should have secured the ammunition in a safe place so as not to put other crew members at risk. and who is responsible for being in control of this situation? the producer. Alec Baldwin.

and why do we hear "misfire" over and over?

because it removes any stain of responsibility from Alec Baldwin, the anti- gun darling of the left. this is up there with "the gun just went off..." a phrase which pegs out my B.S. detector immediately. No, Mr Baldwin, the gun didn't "just go off" .
you cocked the gun
you pointed the gun at another person
you pulled the trigger
and tragically, the gun worked just intended. the hammer fell, detonating the primer, igniting the powder, and propelling the BULLET (notice that the press is very careful not to use that wording) through the chest of another human being (and into the shoulder of a second person) ... the poor woman was as good as dead when she hit the deck. for the uninitiated, a .45 long colt will blow a hole in you big enough to show daylight: it's not designed to be survivable.

so: murder? no, i think not, because there is no indicia that Baldwin ever formed the intent to kill. see New Mexico Statutes Annotated chapter 30 section 30-2-3, paragraph B, thus:

B. Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.
Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony.
(18 months in jail and a $5000 fine)

not an attorney, but Baldwin's only hope here (as i see it) is that he was told the gun was "cold" and might weasel out. i would argue that a gun is inherently a deadly weapon, whether someone says this or that, and he ought not to go pointing it at another person.

so, let's see if Hector Balderas (the NM Atty Gen) or Gregory Shaffer (the Santa Fe County Attorney) are willing to step up to the plate.

 

[Bobby44]

Folks: Lots of good stuff on here. Just adding my .02. I have never been given a firearm that was NOT open for me to see it was unloaded OR- I checked it myself before any further handling. -- An friend from the 'old days' did some fancy gun handling for the movies. He also worked as a weapons wrangler on several movies. Never was he in the role alone! -- Anyone who touched an arm on site when it was not in their job description or script was GONE. So no assistant director ever handed a gun to an actor. My friend said some actors were very weapons knowledgeable and others were dumb as toast. You had to be prepared for it all.
The industry has had a good safety record and I do believe have gotten lax about weapon's safety. Add to that the wish to save a few dollars and hire some one you can bully a bit to speed things up and you have the inevitable. New rules will come. Most all of our rules now come from the death or maiming of somebody.

 

[Red Owl]

Well I disagree. There are 6 rounds loaded into the revolver, it seems that at least one round would have some kind of a finger print- THAT'S the person that put a live round in the revolver- it would seem. I haven't heard anyone even discussing this aspect.
And.....I never realized that was how prop guns worked, you would think some sort of alternative would be used.

 

[Brokennock]

Well I disagree. There are 6 rounds loaded into the revolver, it seems that at least one round would have some kind of a finger print- THAT'S the person that put a live round in the revolver- it would seem. I haven't heard anyone even discussing this aspect.
And.....I never realized that was how prop guns worked, you would think some sort of alternative would be used.

You cab disagree all you want. Finger prints are fragile. I'm not saying it is impossible, just highly unlikely to get a usable fingerprint off of one of those cases.

And, what difference does it make. All this who loaded the gun nonsense is just whipped up to take pressure off the person who pointed a gun at another human being and pulled the trigger,,,, Alec Baldwin.

 

[Mad L]

Are movie prop revolvers fully functional reproductions?

I am looking for opinions about the accident in New Mexico.

As someone who has worked in the industry (CBS and CW, also amateur film makers) and my wife worked 40 years with FOX Studios and been on and in several productions:

The simple answer is No, and Yes.
Movie people are Stupid, they literally think "The Whole World Is A Stage".
In reality a "Prop Gun" would be a Non Firing 'prop' and carried/stored in boxes like simple 'toys'.
A "Stunt Gun" would be a fully functioning firearm for shooting Blanks, Live ammo, or blowing smoke or confetti.

Now some 'Prop Guns' may be actual firearms with the firing pin removed (or disabled in some means or another), but with Old Replicas such as Flintlocks, Percussion, even Canons THEY think simply not giving the Actors or Extras and powder or caps renders it a "Prop".

True; Hollywood does not produce the sharpest tools in the shed.
I recall a conversation years ago with Loyalist Arms (Canada) who supply a Lot of firearms and props for movies and commercials, complaining about the condition many items (including perfectly good firearms) are returned in after 'Renting' them out.

So, bottom line:
"PROP": Non Functional
"STUNT": Functional to some degree

 

[user 48702]

Well I disagree. There are 6 rounds loaded into the revolver, it seems that at least one round would have some kind of a finger print- THAT'S the person that put a live round in the revolver- it would seem. I haven't heard anyone even discussing this aspect.
And.....I never realized that was how prop guns worked, you would think some sort of alternative would be used.

Brokennock is correct. As a retired criminal investigator, I can attest to the fact that latent fingerprints are fragile and easily damaged, especially when mishandled prior to LE arrival to the crime scene. It has already been stated that another crew member removed cartridge(s) from the weapon. That individual's prints would be co-mingled with a potential suspect's. Also, consider cross contamination with carbon and burnt powder residue, since it has been stated. Best case scenario in an ideal world, it is possible that a partial print might be developed, but you still need much more prior to heading to court. As far as the cartridge cases, I would suspect that they will cover that avenue.
If they already have attempted to develop prints, they sure wouldn't make an announcement to the public in order to satisfy one's curiosity.

 

[Brokennock]

Again, none of this about a "potential suspect" regarding who loaded the gun with live ammo erases or nullifies the fact that Baldwin didn't check the gun himself, pointed at someone and pulled the trigger.

If I let students at the range use my guns, then bring them home for cleaning and point one in an unsafe direction and pull the trigger resulting in someone being shot,,,, I am the one responsible. I didn't check the firearm, and I pointed it in an unsafe direction, and I pulled the trigger. Baldwin is responsible for this tragedy. No one else. As I commented on his Instagram post about this, HE failed, he failed her, he failed himself, he failed her family,, and he failed everyone on that set. No one else, him. He is responsible here.

 

[springfield art]

Are movie prop revolvers fully functional reproductions?

I am looking for opinions about the accident in New Mexico.

There are fully "dummy" guns used as props. The stupid newspeople are calling all guns in movies "props", which they are, but many are the Italian repro cartridge-firing pistols that are supposed to be used with blanks; they're still trying to find out who put the actual live round in the gun that killed the cinematographer lady. (Camera person). They also often use the term, "the gun went off" when what actually happened was it was mis-handled and was fired because the handler didn't know how to safely use a gun. BTW, the round that killed the poor woman was found in the shoulder of the assistant director that was next to her. Alec Baldwin has always been "anti-gun", BTW.