Are Muzzleloader's Weapons?

I agree. Despite my sympathies for such bumper sticker quotes as "guns don't kill people, people kill people," and "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns", a firearm is a weapon. Unlike the hammer or golf club, which are tools that can be used as weapons, the firearm is a weapon that can be used as a tool (target shooting, etc.). The knife is more borderline, being man's oldest tool (if you allow the early pebble tools to be classed as knives)which has also been one of the earliest weapons....how many angels are on the head of this pin?

Whether a ML is a weapon or not depends on intent, a baseball bat is not a weapon until the intent is there to use it as one. Since we don't often engage in gunfights with our ML's they are generally not used as weapons.:blah:

Some people would say that the original intent for making the item has a lot to do with it's definition.

A bat was not originally designed to kill, but a gun was. Semantics can't redefine what a gun is.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Whether a ML is a weapon or not depends on intent, a baseball bat is not a weapon until the intent is there to use it as one. Since we don't often engage in gunfights with our ML's they are generally not used as weapons.:blah:

Some people would say that the original intent for making the item has a lot to do with it's definition.

A bat was not originally designed to kill, but a gun was. Semantics can't redefine what a gun is.

By that logic then....what was the original intent of blackpowder when the chinese first made it??

First, that's a game I'm not going to play, because it has no end.

Even if black powder was created by accident and was originally used as entertainment, that doesn't change why a gun was created, or the issue being discussed here.

 

[mschindel]

since most of us are using our ml for target or animal then i don't consider it a weapon. being in the army as i was... we were taught that we had a weapon... something that was intended to kill or mame another human being. since we are not trying this with a ml then it is not a weapon, but as some of you have said "a tool" used to harvest game or paper targets. :m2c: :master:

 

[wolf]

since most of us are using our ml for target or animal then i don't consider it a weapon. being in the army as i was... we were taught that we had a weapon... something that was intended to kill or mame another human being. since we are not trying this with a ml then it is not a weapon, but as some of you have said "a tool" used to harvest game or paper targets. :m2c: :master:

With all due respect, to say that a gun is not a weapon because you only kill animals with it is ludicrous.

By playing this game of semantics, you're actually provided ammunition for the anti-gun crowd. They'll get a big kick out of quoting us... "My gun is not a weapon because it only kills animals. It's a "tool" like a tractor harvesting corn". Right, and my Cessna isn't an airplane if I don't fly it!. :crackup:

"But your Honor, the marijuana was in a bag under my seat. It's not a drug unless I'm smoking it, right? Up until that point it's only a plant, right?".

"Guilty, next case." :shake:

 

[mschindel]

With all due respect, to say that a gun is not a weapon because you only kill animals with it is ludicrous.

By playing this game of semantics, you're actually provided ammunition for the anti-gun crowd. They'll get a big kick out of quoting us... "My gun is not a weapon because it only kills animals. It's a "tool" like a tractor harvesting corn". Right, and my Cessna isn't an airplane if I don't fly it!. :crackup:

"But your Honor, the marijuana was in a bag under my seat. It's not a drug unless I'm smoking it, right? Up until that point it's only a plant, right?".

"Guilty, next case." :shake: [/quote]with all due respect to yourself... opinions are like... well you know the quote... you have yours i have mine... but the one thing we need to remeber is that it is just an opinion. someone's views on a certain topic... i don't see you attacking Claude's views on this issue... or anyone else's for that matter. why take mine and tear it apart? the definition of weapon from the dictionary...an instrument of attack or defense such as a missle, sword, etc. so in that sense anything anything can be used as a weapon am i right or wrong? it is also a way to defeat or defend against another... such as in using logic as a weapon....

 

[musketman]

but the one thing we need to remeber is that it is just an opinion. someone's views on a certain topic...

Good advise, this holds true for all members here.

We must keep in mind that everyone has a right to their opinions and viewpoints...

A friendly reminder from the staff of the Muzzleloading Forum.

 

[wolf]

With all due respect, to say that a gun is not a weapon because you only kill animals with it is ludicrous.

By playing this game of semantics, you're actually provided ammunition for the anti-gun crowd. They'll get a big kick out of quoting us... "My gun is not a weapon because it only kills animals. It's a "tool" like a tractor harvesting corn". Right, and my Cessna isn't an airplane if I don't fly it!. :crackup:

"But your Honor, the marijuana was in a bag under my seat. It's not a drug unless I'm smoking it, right? Up until that point it's only a plant, right?".

"Guilty, next case." :shake:

with all due respect to yourself... opinions are like... well you know the quote... you have yours i have mine... but the one thing we need to remeber is that it is just an opinion. someone's views on a certain topic... i don't see you attacking Claude's views on this issue... or anyone else's for that matter. why take mine and tear it apart? the definition of weapon from the dictionary...an instrument of attack or defense such as a missle, sword, etc. so in that sense anything anything can be used as a weapon am i right or wrong? it is also a way to defeat or defend against another... such as in using logic as a weapon....

[/quote]
I'm not attacking you personally. I had to click on someone to reply to and you made a statement worthy of a reply. I'm addressing your comments, not you as a person. In a debate, we address the comments and ideas put forth. That's what we are doing.

To answer your question, I agree with Claude. He said...

IMHO, there are two things that can make something a "weapon".
1. It was designed as a weapon, such as a gun, bomb, missile, etc.
2. Anything that is used "as a weapon" is, at that moment, a weapon.

We aren't talking about anything being used as a weapon. The issue is, is a muzzleloader (gun) a weapon?

It's impossible to debate an issue if people are going to nullify the concept by saying that "Everything is and everything isn't so there's no point to all this".

As for opinions, yes, we all have them. I'm not directing this at you, but, when forming an opinion, one would hope that the person gathers as much information and data as possible before drawing an opinion. For what it's worth, some opinions are actually closer to the truth than others. In other words, if I have a medical problem, I want the opinion of a doctor, not a plumber. Some opinions have more value than others, but yes, we are entitled to our own, no matter misinformed they may be.

All some us are saying is, a gun is a weapon, whether it's used to kill a human or not. If you are arrested for having a gun during a crime, even if you don't use it, chances are you'll be charged with having a "deadly weapon". I will let someone else test this "opinion" in court if they wish.

Again, none of this is directed at you personally. I'm addressing the issue.eace:

 

[Claude Mathis]

All some us are saying is, a gun is a weapon, whether it's used to kill a human or not. If you are arrested for having a gun during a crime, even if you don't use it, chances are you'll be charged with having a "deadly weapon".

I have to agree with that.

We can all have our opinions, but we need to keep in mind how practical our opinions are compared to the majority of society. It's very difficult to defend yourself in court with just your opinion. Sometimes we try to get our friends to see our opinion because we think it might help them.

If someone thinks a gun is not a weapon, I'm okay with that. I have no vested interest in persuading them otherwise. eace:

 

[NORD]

In my eyes just about anything could be used as a weapon. It all comes down to whether or not I choose to use an object as a weapon...heak even my muscle bound body is a deadly weapon :crackup:...I bet if persuaded I could use a feather as a weapon!

In regards the the question: My muzzleloaders and other firearms are used as tools for recreation, target competition shooting and hunting therefore they are not weapons...but as soon as I try to defend myself from anything with my muzzleloader or firearm it would be regarded as a weapon. Just like if I were to use my axe that I use as a tool to split wood, could be used as a weapon, for example if I were attacked by a rabied coon while spliting wood I would give it my best to run that axe blade right throught the middle of its body.

:m2c: eace:

 

[Tahquamenon]

In regards the the question: My muzzleloaders and other firearms are used as tools for recreation, target competition shooting and hunting therefore they are not weapons...but as soon as I try to defend myself from anything with my muzzleloader or firearm it would be regarded as a weapon.

:m2c: eace:

Then it should be more than legal and socially acceptable to take your non-weapon or tool into say a: Elementary school, library, grocery store, hospital, police station, commercial aircraft and show the pilot, video store, the mall, a child daycare center, pharmacy, shoe store, favorite restaurants, sports arena, concert or anywhere.

Correct?

 

[NORD]

Then it should be more than legal and socially acceptable to take your non-weapon or tool into say a: Elementary school, library, grocery store, hospital, police station, commercial aircraft and show the pilot, video store, the mall, a child daycare center, pharmacy, shoe store, favorite restaurants, sports arena, concert or anywhere.

Correct?

Sure I don't see why not if I were going to use my muzzleloader at say an elementary school, say for a demonstration. If I don't need my muzzleloader at say an elementary school then why should I take it. I can see where it would raise soom eye brows if I wasn't doing a demonstration and I was lugging my muzzleloader into an elementary school. Just like if I were to enter a sporting event with my axe over my shoulder I think they would tell me to leave or call the cops.

I think society has approached dealing with weapons and crime in the wrong way. Because their real agenda is to: "Get all the guns from Mr. and Mrs. America" California Senator Diane Feinstein Democrat/Communist

eace:

 

[NORD]

Actually nobody better let me into any public facility or function because like I said before my muscle bound body is a weapon! :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Then it should be more than legal and socially acceptable to take your non-weapon or tool into say a: Elementary school, library, grocery store, hospital, police station, commercial aircraft and show the pilot, video store, the mall, a child daycare center, pharmacy, shoe store, favorite restaurants, sports arena, concert or anywhere.

Correct?

Correct. Just be sure to put your opinion in your shooting bag in case you get busted.

:sorry: I just think this horse is pretty dead.

But, somebody take a non-weapon and shoot it just to be sure. :crackup:

 

[Tahquamenon]

:crackup:

 

[hobbles]

:applause:

 

[Tahquamenon]

[/quote]
I think society has approached dealing with weapons and crime in the wrong way. Because their real agenda is to: "Get all the guns from Mr. and Mrs. America" California Senator Diane Feinstein Democrat/Communist
eace: [/quote]

In many cases quite true. These are the same people that live in the fantasy world that by banning all weapons everyone will be safer as the police will protect us when someone is breaking into our homes, when the reality is that law abiding folks will then not have the weapons and the would-be criminal element will always be able to get and use them.

These are the same politicians that can afford bodyguards (that carry weapons) and high security systems. Strip them of that fluffy taxpayer luxury and let them live as the rest of us.

eace: :imo:

 

[hobbles]

There are a lot of Californias that feel the same way, They want their guns,,
Did you know that (I bet) 85% of the people in Southern California are from somewhere else,

 

[Claude Mathis]

There are a lot of Californias that feel the same way, They want their guns,,
Did you know that (I bet) 85% of the people in Southern California are from somewhere else,

I was born in San Diego. I keep asking the Pilgrims to leave, but they like the weather. ::

 

[flintlockmdj]

We are having enough trouble out of Uncle Sam already. Please close this thread while we still have our muzzleloaders.

 

Haw! I was born in California, but do not live there. My brother was born in Arkansas and does live in California! I won't go back and he won't leave! Oh, well....to each his own!

There are a lot of Californias that feel the same way, They want their guns,,
Did you know that (I bet) 85% of the people in Southern California are from somewhere else,