Are The Italian Black Powder Manufacturers Going to Go out Of Business?

[SDSmlf]

What I’m saying is that their manufacturing capacity is not what it was.
Demand is not increasing at all. Interest in BP shooting is declining rapidly.

The demand is not likely any greater now than it was 10 years ago, but the Italian companies seem to be producing and shipping much less.

Just curious, but what actual data do you have that the Italian manufacturing capacity is not what it was and they are shipping less. Not arguing, but wondering what other than speculation you might have?

 

[wiscoaster]

Look at current pictures of shooters on the firing lines at Friendship.
....

Sorry, but current pics of shooters at Friendship isn't data. I frequent three local outdoor ranges and it's not at all unusual for me to see muzzleloader shooters out there. Granted, some of those are shooting modern centerline muzzleloaders, but when they see how much fun I'm having with my black powder flintlock and percussion muzzleloaders I think they're suitably impressed. Some of them will be converts, I have no doubt. I think there are plenty of new shooters just getting into the sport that don't show up yet on the radars of the established organizations. I'm not a club man myself, and though there's a black powder muzzleloader club in the area, I frankly have no interest in joining. They've got this weird rule about required membership meeting attendance that I consider a "no-go" for me. So I don't even count in the "data". Furthermore, Wisconsin has a muzzleloaders-only hunting season, so I don't think it's going away.

 

[Flint1]

I frequently go to DGW's site and look at the replica flint long arms and cap and ball revolvers. After doing that for several years I have found that each time I have checked there are firearms in both those categories I have never seen as out of stock, including the Pedersoli Brown Bess and all the Uberti Dragoons, which should be quite popular. Some I have seen which are almost always out of stock, and some are out of stock about 30 to 40 % of the time. I don't think they're about to go out of business anytime soon. I don't know if the manufactures are building more of what is selling, if the importers are bringing in what they see as more popular, or both.

 

[SDSmlf]

Look at current pictures of shooters on the firing lines at Friendship.
A muzzleloading club in north-central Arkansas that hosts 2 State Championships every year has seen participation drop by 75% over the last 10 years.
I may have overstated things a bit by suggesting that the Italian companies may eventually shut down, but I do think demand is dropping and maybe the manufacturers are not planning on replacing most of the workers they lost during the height of the China Virus plague.

Ok, now it all makes sense. Explains why caps and powder are so hard to find. Demand is falling and all the cap and powder manufacturing companies world wide are slowing down, and will soon be out of business also.

I’m glad I stocked up on supplies.

 

[Bushfire]

I do not know what is behind it but Pedersoli has pretty much priced themselves out of the market. At least the market that I would participate in.

They have almost a monopoly on “traditional looking” guns so I suppose they’ve been able to do it.

I imagine the average person who wants a traditional looking gun googles it or asks their local dealer and that’s the only suggestion.

 

[CaptainKirk]

I don't see them going out of business any time soon. American labor is not going to put them out of business; we can't manufacture a replica firearm for under a grand. It's been tried before and the American market will not pay what they can purchase an import for, for less than a third. You can argue that Ruger was semi-successful with the ROA, but it was still twice the price of an Italian import and was not a replica of anything.
As long as there is a viable market here, the Italian manufacturers will continue to fill it, albeit with reduced or back-ordered numbers if that's the way the chips fall.

 

[smoothshooter]

"Out of stock" is the common story with most businesses anymore. Heck, it was 50 years ago, too. They just don't carry the inventory. If you have ever a seen a 4" thick MSC catalog, they don't keep all that in stock. They are just basically telling it can be sourced.

A lot of distributors don’t want to tie up money on inventory that may be hard to move.

 

[SDSmlf]

A lot of distributors don’t want to tie up money on inventory that may be hard to move.

And that is the reason Italian gun builders are going out of business? Which then somehow explains why their products are so hard to find…

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

I get stock updates every week or so from Taylor's. So far this year its been 3 pages of IN STOCK firearms.
Just because discount dicks has a gun listed and not in stock doesn't mean it's not available elsewhere.
SMH

 

[smoothshooter]

And that is the reason Italian gun builders are going out of business? Which then somehow explains why their products are so hard to find…

It is a joint effort. Manufacturers don’t want to produce more than they can quickly sell
Distributors and retailers in the US don’t want to have to sit on products that are increasingly expensive and have to pay more interest on business loan money that they operate on.
So the retailers tend to special order everything, but only as needed.
It’s called the “ Just In Time Process “ pioneered by the Japanese auto makers in the early 1980’s.
As for Italian long guns, I don’t think the manufacturers have much interest in making many of them regardless of demand.

 

[smoothshooter]

Ok, now it all makes sense. Explains why caps and powder are so hard to find. Demand is falling and all the cap and powder manufacturing companies world wide are slowing down, and will soon be out of business also.

I’m glad I stocked up on supplies.

I don’t think they will go out of business, but they are moving people off of percussion cap-making lines and on to primer making lines because percussion cap users are a very, very small niche market, and ammunition and component manufacturers are busy making more money fulfilling military and law-enforcement contracts as governments around the word are rapidly gearing up for a very possible WW III.
Same for smokeless and black powder.

 

[SDSmlf]

I don’t think they will go out of business, but they are moving people off of percussion cap-making lines and on to primer making lines because percussion cap users are a very, very small niche market, and ammunition and component manufacturers are busy making more money fulfilling military and law-enforcement contracts as governments around the word are rapidly gearing up for a very possible WW III.
Same for smokeless and black powder.

A lot of speculation. What industry or market data do you have that you are not yet sharing to backup this speculation that ‘they’ are moving people off of percussion cap lines?

What I’m saying is that their manufacturing capacity is not what it was.
Demand is not increasing at all. Interest in BP shooting is declining rapidly.

So what manufacturing capacity had been reduced? What specific manufacturing facilities have been closed or mothballed?

The demand is not likely any greater now than it was 10 years ago

Demand is down based on what actual market study or data?

Are the Italian Replica Gun Companies Gradually Going Out Of Business?

Why not just share the data that shows this business trend? Enquiring minds would love to know.

 

[danda0624]

I don't agree. Do you have any data to support that?

This wasn’t my argument but I can attest to the fact that Civil War reenacting across the board is much smalller in terms of numbers of men on the field which is likely a large sector of folks that utilize BP weapons.

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

This wasn’t my argument but I can attest to the fact that Civil War reenacting across the board is much smalller in terms of numbers of men on the field which is likely a large sector of folks that utilize BP weapons.

Silly War "reenactment" is shooting blanks. And does not represent the BP hunter nor the casual /competition shooters.

The BP market isn't in the United States alone.

If you look at manufacturers powder bottles,jugs,tins you'll find most of the products are imported.

Remington and Cascade Cartridge Company's caps are made by the same facility. Yea, because they are owned by the same Vista Outdoors Corp.,
at the chicken ranch in Lewiston, Idaho.

Numbers of shooters are down yes and that has been a discussion for a good 40-50 years.
Shooting is an expensive sport,maybe second to owning a boat and racing.
Most people who join a gun club will maybe be active for 3 years then they find a new hobby.
I've seen very few people go past the three to five year mark for shooting regularly.
(I know this because I was a director and president of gun clubs)

For some forsaken reason many think shooting is easy. They don't have to put the time in it and practice and study what they're doing.
So they reach a level of shooting ability, they never get any better and they can't figure out why.

As far as the number 10 cap and number 11 cap use goes.
IMPO
You put one cap on your rifle but six on your revolver. You have a ton of 100 caps which tin do you think you're going to empty first?
Entire industry has been turned upside down by all the investments speculators.
I know it written here before about the distributors that I was using over the years that have gone under and retired.
Every one of these business decisions affects distribution.
The sportsman uses maybe 3% of the lead produced in the world.
I don't know the amount of powder sportsman use.
But if you guess/ figure how much propellant it takes to launch a 3-in shell.
I bet that the majority of the people on this form wouldn't use that weight in black powder in 10 years.

 

[sportster73hp]

Silly War "reenactment" is shooting blanks. And does not represent the BP hunter nor the casual /competition shooters.

The BP market isn't in the United States alone.

If you look at manufacturers powder bottles,jugs,tins you'll find most of the products are imported.

Remington and Cascade Cartridge Company's caps are made by the same facility. Yea, because they are owned by the same Vista Outdoors Corp.,
at the chicken ranch in Lewiston, Idaho.

Numbers of shooters are down yes and that has been a discussion for a good 40-50 years.
Shooting is an expensive sport,maybe second to owning a boat and racing.
Most people who join a gun club will maybe be active for 3 years then they find a new hobby.
I've seen very few people go past the three to five year mark for shooting regularly.
(I know this because I was a director and president of gun clubs)

For some forsaken reason many think shooting is easy. They don't have to put the time in it and practice and study what they're doing.
So they reach a level of shooting ability, they never get any better and they can't figure out why.

As far as the number 10 cap and number 11 cap use goes.
IMPO
You put one cap on your rifle but six on your revolver. You have a ton of 100 caps which tin do you think you're going to empty first?
Entire industry has been turned upside down by all the investments speculators.
I know it written here before about the distributors that I was using over the years that have gone under and retired.
Every one of these business decisions affects distribution.
The sportsman uses maybe 3% of the lead produced in the world.
I don't know the amount of powder sportsman use.
But if you guess/ figure how much propellant it takes to launch a 3-in shell.
I bet that the majority of the people on this form wouldn't use that weight in black powder in 10 years.

Bill is correct. I shot NRA high power rifle for 5 years , uspsa pistol for about 10 now bp rifle and pistol. You do need to put in the time to shoot the best scores. People get bored if they don’t improve and moved to different past times.

 

[wganz]

Maybe the millions dumped into T/C for a domestic ‘Hawken’ rifle put the fear of God into them and they’re cutting their losses while they can?

 

[sportster73hp]

Maybe the millions dumped into T/C for a domestic ‘Hawken’ rifle put the fear of God into them and they’re cutting their losses while they can?

Pedersoli makes more than a hawken . I don’t see TC making a Brown Bess or Charleville nor an Enfield or Springfield. A revolver maybe.

 

[TFoley]

With CNC operations like Kibler emerging, I can see the overseas manufacturers taking a huge hit in the market.

So far, Mr Kibler has produced American home-grown models - he has yet to make any replication of anything else. With the likes of Pedersoli making fifty or more European-style firearms, that appeal to European tastes, just as muzzleloaders, I can't see them shutting up shop any time soon.

As long as there are reenactors of both the WoI and the ACW there will be people who want the guns in use at the time - there is NO US-based manufactury of this nature.

 

[tucosink]

Ridiculous topic

 

[Hawk54]

I don't agree. Do you have any data to support that?

I agree with you. Black powder firearms sell well around here. I have a couple of friends who sell them in shops and they fly off the shelves if reasonably priced. You see far fewer of them at gunshows and shops than just three years ago.