Are the slow twists of the Springfield and Enfield rifle musket not suitable for minié balls?

[PathfinderNC]

And ditto TFoley's comment above: The OP has asked this question before, and received substantially the same response : Tumbling minié balls. Advice please

 

[Packrat]

I gad two 53Enfields, one was ASM the other was a Parker Hale. The ASM took a standard .58 and shot pretty well, the Parker Hale had to be sized down to .577 and it shot beautifully. Hit a standing bear tarfer at almost 500 yards and hit it repeatedly, offhand, I was much younger than .

 

[kh54]

Coincidentally, I had my own Parker Hale 1853 at the range on Saturday. So to answer the OP’s original post…

 

[Collie]

Thanks gentlemen for your help. I made some time this afternoon and slugged the first inch or so down into the muzzle. The rifling is shallow (as it should be because it’s got progressive depth rifling). The widest diameter measurement is .584 and the smallest is .580. So the .575 and .577 bullets were too small.

My lubricant is 80/20 tallow and beeswax that i make myself. I learned about it from the Research Press website. I‘m very new to minié balls and rifle muskets, but the few shooting sessions I’ve done with this Enfield using that lubricant allowed me to not need to clean between shots and final clean up at home was easy. (Of course now I know the bullets were undersized so that probably had a bit to do with easy loading)

I bought the lead directly from a foundry and was displayed as pure lead on the shelf.

This rifle musket has 3 groove rifling

So, I need to find a bullet mould that casts a US minié/Burton ball I can size to around .582 or I can go British and paper patch a Pritchett/Boxer bullet up to thickness and use an expanding plug.

Have I assimilated everyone’s advice?

If yours has three rifling grooves like I believe it does then just measuring it with your calipers will not work and you'll be measuring the groove depth on one side and the land depth on the other side. You should get some pin gauges like was recommended earlier or borrow some from someone that already has them.
The good news is once you find the correct bore size you never really have to do it again with this rifle.

 

[wiscoaster]

I didn't see any posts that mentioned wads. My 1861 shoots much better without wads. Just ball on powder. I'm not familiar with the 1853, but as I understand from videos the historically accurately made ball and cartridge, and the loading method results in paper wads above and below ball, no? Is the OP shooting with or without wads?

Those are some pretty awesome keyholes, BTW.

 

[TFoley]

I didn't see any posts that mentioned wads. My 1861 shoots much better without wads. Just ball on powder. I'm not familiar with the 1853, but as I understand from videos the historically accurately made ball and cartridge, and the loading method results in paper wads above and below ball, no? Is the OP shooting with or without wads?

Those are some pretty awesome keyholes, BTW.

No wads in a Minié rifle, just the bare, but lubed bullet. You need to watch Brett's 'paper cartridges' video to see the correct loading procedure, as employed by the British with their Minié rifle and later, by the CSA in their first use of the 'English cartridge' at Shiloh.

 

[springfield art]

View attachment 274697View attachment 274698View attachment 274699View attachment 274700View attachment 274701View attachment 274702View attachment 274701There will be some clever person that answers “there are hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers that can answer that”

I’ve got a Parker Hale P53 with the historic 1:78 twist. I have tried minié balls from moulds made by Lyman, Lee and a custom made mould with interchangeable plug inserts for different hollow bases. I’ve tried ffg and fffg black powder from 40 grains up to 80 grains. Every single bullet tumbles into the target, if it hits the target at all.
The rifling bore is in great shape and the progressive-depth rifling is prominent.
I don’t slam the bullet home onto powder, I weigh the bullets within 1 grain, my lubricant is excellent, I use pure soft lead. What the hell does this rifle musket want to eat?
I know this isn’t a target rifle but it should be able to at least do a 5-6 inch group at 100 yards. Attached are photos of the tumbling targets and a couple of recovered bullets. I can’t get a good picture of the rifling but take my word for it that it’s in nice shape. This musket was made in Birmingham in 1974 and it has had very little use.

Sure you're using Pure Lead, not wheel weight stuff? Certainly sounds like you've tried all avenues. Will be interesting to see what others say.

 

[dave951]

There's one other thing to consider, bedding of the barrel to the stock. While every PH I've handled was good in that regard, this should still be checked.

To determine a correctly bedded barrel- remove all bands, screws, etc that connect or hold the barrel in the stock. Then lay the barrel in the stock and tighten the tang as screw ONLY. If the muzzle lifts out of the stock more than about a half inch, you got a problem. Most folks just blindly run the tang screw down white knuckles tight and that induces a bend in the barrel that gets worse as the gun heats up.

IF everything else is right, this can well be the issue OR a previous owner bent or trashed the barrel. If yours is truly a PH I have very serious doubts on the authenticity is the barrel pin gauges over .577.

 

[aussie pete]

Hi @Widows Son. We've chatted before. I'm concerned about your lube. In my PH 53 I have had success with 80% beeswax, and 20% lard. My musket likes its minies dipped in lube, then the excess lube removed with a funnel device. For my musket, lube is critical. Originally, I dipped the minies and left all the lube on, the excess removed by the muzzle when loading. Using this technique, my groups were not groups, some keyholes and blown patterns evident at 50 metres.

Kind regards, Pete

 

[Widows Son]

Thanks Pete. I certainly have some options to experiment with when I can next make it to the range.

A machine shop measuring the bore with a telescopic gauge and it was .582 (I’m not sure is that is groove to groove or land to land)

I will certainly adjust the lubricant ratio also.

I remember watching some documentary where it was said the rifle musket in the hands of an average soldier using the service cartridge could make a 4 inch group at 100 yards.

 

[Some_Mook]

I remember watching some documentary where it was said the rifle musket in the hands of an average soldier using the service cartridge could make a 4 inch group at 100 yards.

The annual qualifications according to the Regulations manual for Musketry Instruction of the Army (British) dated 1859 shot a 3rd class target at ranges between 150 and 300 yards in 50 yard increments -while standing.

5 shots at a given target at each designated target class range for a twenty round total fired at each of the 3rd, 2nd and 1st class targets - assuming that the soldier achieved a passing score making him eligible to move to the higher classification target.

The 3rd class target had a bulls eye 8" in diameter and a black circle 2 feet in diameter. The 3rd class target was set by using two sectioned iron slabs, each measuring 6 feet by 2 feet (positioned 6' H x 4'W). To pass the 3rd class target drills a score of 15 points was required. Hits scored upon the target panels score a point for each hit. Hits within the black circles added additional points each to the total score.

All individual target practices were conducted in marching order, with knapsacks worn. Distances greater than 300 yards were shot from the kneeling position, distances 300 yards and less were shot while standing.

The 2nd class target consisted of 4 of the 6'x2' panels (positioned 6' H by 8' W) with a black center measuring 24" in diameter, shot at ranges from 400, 500, 550 and 600 yards and required a score of 12 points to pass on to the 1st class qualification.

A 1st class target, constructed from 6 of the 6'x2' target panels arranged 4' H by 18' W with a black center measuring 36" in diameter shot from ranges of 650, 700, 800 and 900 yards required a score of 7 points to pass and would make the soldier eligible to be exempt from certain theoretical qualification training for the following year. Passing the 1st class qualification with a 7 point or greater score would entitle the soldier to certain musketry awards as well, relative to the final score.

So, the 'average' soldier would have been expected to be able to hit the 3rd class target (an area of 6' x4') 15 times out of 20 shots with no added points for hitting within the aiming circle or bull in order to pass (one could pass with fewer total than 15 actual hits if enough of those hits were within the higher scoring designations) before they would be eligible to move on to the 2nd class target.

While there were certainly individuals with the skill to shoot a 4" group at 100 yards, the average soldier was neither expected or required to achieve that level of accuracy.

Understanding the rainbow trajectory of the bullet and atmospheric variables, as well as being proficient at determining ranges and knowing the sight picture and amount of hold-over required to compensate was a great skill to have, and those who passed the 1st class target qualifications had those skills in spades.

FWIW, each individual soldier was allotted 90 rounds annually for qualification, 60 of which were designated for use in the individual qualifications. The other 30 rounds were expended 10 rounds apiece practicing shooting by file, volley fire and skirmishing.

The requirement and expense to allot ammunition and time for musketry training was a principle reason why very little shooting practice and qualifications were conducted, North or South, by the factions fighting the War between the Union and Confederate States. Both sides pretty much provided basic soldiering drills, precursory loading demonstrations and very basic firing of the weapons (if at all) before the troops were tasked with loading them up and shooting at the other side. Enlisting or Drafting soldiers that already had some manual of arms experience was a bonus for each side.