Aspiring marksman.

[jbwilliams3]

Thanks guys and possibly gals? I'll try my best to feed you some required information that was asked of me. I'm shooting a 45 cal. Rifle with a 48 inch bill large barrel, the rifle is a verner style build by me. I'm using 70 grains of goex, 3f. Pushing a .440 ball patched with .015 patching lined with bore butter. I get 50 yard groups that cover with a quarter.

Nice groups. I wouldn’t necessarily change anything, but since I’m cheap I would experiment with the powder load. 70 Grains of 3f is a stiff load for a .45. I wonder if maybe you’re not burning all that powder? I get good groups in a .45 at closer to 50 grains of powder. Shoot, in a fifty I get good groups with that much powder for paper punching. It’s worth a ‘xperiment.

 

[Eutycus]

I'm missing something here. Moose Milk and MAP are not the same thing are they?

 

[Zonie]

IMO, MAP and Moose Milk are two words for the same stuff.
That's why when Stumpkiller came up with his mixture I labeled it "Moose Juice" so people wouldn't think it was the same thing. (It isn't).

For those who haven't seen what goes into Moose Juice, here it is:

Castor Oil 3 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.
Witch Hazel 4 oz.
Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.
Water (non-chlorinated if available) 16 oz.

I've used it for years and it's good stuff for a patch lube.

 

[Sidney Smith]

I've been using bore butter as a patch lube forever and I've never had issues such as those I've read here. I swab the bore after about 5 shots and have never had a crud ring build up to the point that I needed a puller to get the rod out. I normally don't shoot more than about 25 shots during a range session so maybe that has something to do with it.

 

[Kyle smith]

Well I scrubbed the barrel until it was clean, using every decreasing solution I have available to remove all traces of BoreButter. I have some bear oil here that I coated it in UNTILL the wonder lube shows up to try then if that do t work onto moose juice, milk, map, ECT ect and dry patching.
Interesting note. When I was doing my hornet nest over powder experiment I felt like my ring build up was alot less. But you thing 70 grains just patch and ball is stout shove a pinch of hornets nest down there and touch it off. Lol

 

[lwscrim]

Some folks on here swear by bear oil for a patch lube... might be worth a try.
I'm partial to a mix of neatsfoot oil and bees wax for a patch lube.
I shoot 75 grains of FF black powder for a hunting load in my .45s, close equivalent to 65 grains of FFF BP.

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

I swab after 2-3 shots with brake cleaner...evaporates faster than alcohol and gets the job done. Beautiful rifle!

 

[Kansas Kid]

Try not wiping between shots and using a wet lube. I like Hoppes 9+. Give it a try it ain’t gonna cost you much.
BTW midsouth shooters supply has 9+ for about half price of other places.

 

[Griz44Mag]

IMO, MAP and Moose Milk are two words for the same stuff.
That's why when Stumpkiller came up with his mixture I labeled it "Moose Juice" so people wouldn't think it was the same thing. (It isn't).

For those who haven't seen what goes into Moose Juice, here it is:

Castor Oil 3 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.
Witch Hazel 4 oz.
Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.
Water (non-chlorinated if available) 16 oz.

I've used it for years and it's good stuff for a patch lube.

MAP is only 3 ingredients: Murphy's, Alcohol, Peroxide. (M.A.P.) Equal parts of each
It will boil a nipple clean as a whistle and de-gum a breech in a couple of minutes.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Going back to 2009 and further, Moose Milk is a mix of a Water Soluble oil and water. It used to be the NAPA water soluble oil until they changed the formula and then it became Ballistol and water. Some . used the water soluble oils used for machine working. The proportions vary, usually one part oil to seven parts water. At some time the mix of Murphy's Oil Soap, Rubbing Alcohol and Hydrogen Peroxide became touted as a great cleaner, which it is, and was commonly known as MAP. The mix will foam up like crazy when it is applied to black powder fouling and really clean up black powder. Some folks began calling MAP Moose Milk. As I stated earlier there are many mixtures that can be called "Moose Milk". As long as there is oil for lubrication and something to dissolve the fouling all these myriad of mixtures can quite happily be called "Moose Milk".

 

[Loyalist Dave]

That's ODD, as I was taught Murphys/Alcohol/Peroxide in 1995 at an event called "Under the Redcoat" in Colonial Williamsburg where the fellow who showed it to me called it "moose milk", and I'd never heard of using water soluble oil and water, or Napa oil, or Ballistol at that time. Further, I'd never heard of Napa oil or Ballistol at all, and my LGS where I worked part time didn't start selling Ballistol until after 2000. Also I'd never heard the former called "MAP", nor heard of the debate of which was which until I joined this forum.

LD

 

[Eterry]

The only time i use an oiled patch is when loading a prb for deer season... then it stays loaded until i shoot at a deer.
Otherwise, i have always used a spit patch for shooting, and hunting if i plan on not leaving it loaded overnight.
I am new to the flintlock game... so far i've been happy with scalding water and dawn to clean my barrel.
Im sad to say i haven't shot it enough at once to have trouble loading...i think 12-15 shots are the most i've fired in one outing.

My cap runs I've used Nylon brush ,(it sucks to get a brass one stuck), and/or hoppe's BP soaked cleaning patches on a jag.

 

[yonderin]

I initially used boiling water for cleaning as well but have switched to just using hot tap water and dawn. Seems to work just as well and I don't need to wait as long to get at it. Some folks seem to be happy with cold water.

Gave up on such things as Bore Butter and use spit patches since I normally fire within a few minutes of loading. Am kind of curious about the patch drying out and the effect of that if I used it for a hunting situation. If nothing else, a smoldering patch in dry grass and brush?

 

[Howard Pippin]

Thanks keylt. Took me most my winter to finish her up. Names her Katie. So far she takes everything I do to her in stride. I have wonder lube ordered and also some ballistol. So maybe I can find another system that works better. All I know is after about 25 to 30 shots she needs a thorough cleaning or she goes to he'll in a handbasket.

I see a lot of bad things said here about bore butter, and from my experience wonder lube is about the same thing. I've used it for 20 years, I don't have any complaints, but perhaps I don't shoot as much as others seem to. I have been using Hoppy's blackpowder number nine for cleaning, but the last time I shot and cleaned, what was about two weeks ago, after cleaning with the number nine, I happened to run a cleaning patch saturated with wonder lube and the darn thing come out plum black, so I ran some more of them down until they came out clean.
I have some elephant brand FFF that I had just shot previously and I wonder if that was where all the black came from. I've yet to chronograph a comparison on the powders, was planning to do as soon as the weather permits. I always run a wonder lube or bore butter patch the following day After being on the range, and it has worked for me. Generally our humidity here is very low and I don't know whether that has any effect on it or not. I've tried swabbing between shots, or every fifth shot or not until I'm done which could be 15 shots. I could always load PRB regardless, but I tried to load a mini ball into a dirty barrel, got it stuck halfway down. Had to saturate with WD-40, was finally able to drive it on down and was able to blow it out with the CO2 unloader. I had never tried that before, and I won't try it again without swabbing. That WD-40 is the first petroleum product that I have used inside the bore for probably 15 years. Traditions wonder lube 1000+ seems to work for me, but apparently not for a lot of the other fellows. Thought you might enjoy the different viewpoint.
Squint

 

[Eutycus]

When Bore Butter and Wonder Lube first came on the market they were both praised as some sort of "miracle in a bottle" or "8th wonder of the world". Here lately not so much praise is given to either of these products. Its probably not that these are bad it's just there are so many better things to use.

 

[FishDFly]

The internet and it's knowledge was not around when they arrived in the market place, advertising in magazines it what sold them.

 

[Huntschool]

First off... OP, where did you get a Bill Large barrel in this day and time ????? Is your barrel a gain twist, choke bored or any other of the things Bill did to/with his barrels ?????

As to crud rings etc. I shoot mostly "wet/damp" patches in all my barrels from Sharon, Getz, Rice and an old Douglas when I am on the range and for most of my hunting. I only change to a more "freeze proof" patch if I am out in really cold temps which I dont hardly do any longer. These "wet" patches have always worked for me with one caveat; I always do a good wipe after about 10 shots. So, my comments may be a bit off in the greater scheme of things. In shooting this way I have really never experienced a noticeable "crud" build up. (see below)

I have been shooting since I was 12 yo and am 72 now so you can get an idea of time span. I was taught early on that "spit" patches worked best and I can not argue with that. Also that heavy grease would help "foul" a gun and I think that is correct also. One unique patch material that I used years ago was the "Ox YOKE" dry lubricated patch. I am guessing that that material was impregnated with "Teflon". They worked great for first shot out of a clean bore but you had to wipe your barrel between shots. Great for hunting..... nothing to dry out on ya and they shot to POI of my "spit" patch loads. I found you could get them wet if kept in water for a good bit and that made the second shot loading great. Unfortunately they are no longer available.

All the above being said I have one gun, a fowler, with a top tier barrel in .620 that will only give me 5 rounds at 85 gr. of 3fffg GOEX with a .010 patch and .600 ball before a heavy ring shows up. I must admit, thus far my patches have been medium wet and that may be the cause. I am experimenting with a more wet patch and also MAP as the wetting agent. We shall see what happens.

JMHO

 

[Kyle smith]

So I got I to building rifles a little over 2 years ago with a 36 flinter from log cabin then moved on to rebuilding 2 southern style rifles from preexisting rifles that I had that were cheap. About the time I finished that I had the good fortune to meet a gentleman who really helped me along on my building. You know the why and why nots. How and how too. Anyways I expressed interest in building a verner style rifle, i liked the side opening patchbox, the architecture and flowing lines. One day he calls me up tells me to come visit him and hands me pretty much a kit gun, barrel inlet, ramrod channel done, butt stock shaped and says it been sitting in his closet for 15 years and he can't bring himself to finish it. Makes it a gift to me. Says the barrel he ordered 1 year before bills passing and that he had it hand rifled.
Funny thing is that very rifling machine is sitting 30 miles from me in the home of one of the gentleman who married one of bills daughters

 

[Sidney Smith]

That's ODD, as I was taught Murphys/Alcohol/Peroxide in 1995 at an event called "Under the Redcoat" in Colonial Williamsburg where the fellow who showed it to me called it "moose milk", and I'd never heard of using water soluble oil and water, or Napa oil, or Ballistol at that time. Further, I'd never heard of Napa oil or Ballistol at all, and my LGS where I worked part time didn't start selling Ballistol until after 2000. Also I'd never heard the former called "MAP", nor heard of the debate of which was which until I joined this forum.

LD

Dave; Murphy's is a water soluble vegetable based oil....

 

[Griz44Mag]

So I got I to building rifles a little over 2 years ago with a 36 flinter from log cabin then moved on to rebuilding 2 southern style rifles from preexisting rifles that I had that were cheap. About the time I finished that I had the good fortune to meet a gentleman who really helped me along on my building. You know the why and why nots. How and how too. Anyways I expressed interest in building a verner style rifle, i liked the side opening patchbox, the architecture and flowing lines. One day he calls me up tells me to come visit him and hands me pretty much a kit gun, barrel inlet, ramrod channel done, butt stock shaped and says it been sitting in his closet for 15 years and he can't bring himself to finish it. Makes it a gift to me. Says the barrel he ordered 1 year before bills passing and that he had it hand rifled.
Funny thing is that very rifling machine is sitting 30 miles from me in the home of one of the gentleman who married one of bills daughters

There are a few of the around. I picked up one of Cliff Jackson's Curly Maple stocked Kentucky's (No. 141) a while back and it has a WM Large barrel on it. From what I can find out, it was built somewhere around 1967-8 so that one has a late Bill Large barrel on it. They seem to be very good barrels.