Bag Molds, Pro's/ Con's

[coloradoclyde]

:shocked2: That's a new one.....But are they thick enough to cast a musket ball?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Stick you pinky in the soil to make a cavity and pour the lead in.

Saw a National Geographic on tiger poaching where resourceful locals melted a toothpaste tube (tin?) and did this. Killed a tiger with it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Don't like to shoot conicals..... :haha:

 

[Brokennock]

I've heard of the corn cob insulator before. Seems like a good practical idea.

Couple thoughts on "running balls" with a bag mold historically. Many period journals and other writings describe woman in a fort that was under siege casting balls during the fight. I doubt they were using Lees and Lyman's. As for carrying and equivalent weight in balls already cast, I guess it would depend on how long one was to be out. If out long enough to need more ball than the shot pouch or ball carrying device would hold at once, space might deem it more practical to carry bars of lead than cast round balls. I'm no good at math, so maybe one of our resident engineers can help out here, but I'm betting 5 pounds of lead in 1/4 pound bars (just picking random numbers) would take up less space than 5 pounds of cast round balls.

I seem to remember one of the smaller vendors, one of the "forges"? Carrying bag molds.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Don't like to shoot conicals..... :haha:

Don't stick your pinky in so far. ;-)

 

[Black Hand]

....but I'm betting 5 pounds of lead in 1/4 pound bars (just picking random numbers) would take up less space than 5 pounds of cast round balls.

And yet, I'd still opt for the 5 pounds of cast ball. Far more useful...

 

[jethro224]

I remember reading somewhere, maybe it was Lewis and Clark (?), that powder was carried in lead containers. Supposedly the lead containers would be melted down and cast into approximately the number of balls that would be shot with the amount of powder stored inside the container. I wish Goex came in lead containers rather than the current plastic ones.

 

[Stumpkiller]

. . . but I'm betting 5 pounds of lead in 1/4 pound bars (just picking random numbers) would take up less space than 5 pounds of cast round balls.

No engineer - but a business manager and cost analyst. How are you going to get the lead melted and into that mold? Add the weight and bulk of the "peripherals" like a ladle.

If you use your skillet you start to talk like Zonie after a while.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I remember reading somewhere, maybe it was Lewis and Clark (?), that powder was carried in lead containers. Supposedly the lead containers would be melted down and cast into approximately the number of balls that would be shot with the amount of powder stored inside the container. I wish Goex came in lead containers rather than the current plastic ones.

Yep! Lewis and Clark were the first Ultralight Backpackers......Real gram weenies....
By using lead as packaging they saved space and weight....
Who ever thought lead packaging would save weight... :haha:

 

[Zonie]

You asked for it.

Lead weighs .4097 pounds (about .41 pounds) per cubic inch.

That says a pound of lead takes up about 2.439 cubic inches worth of volume.

A block 1 inch high would have to be 1.562 X 1.562 inches wide and deep to have a volume of 2.439 cubic inches so here we have a block of lead 1 9/16 wide X 1 9/16 deep X 1 inch high in our hand and it weighs a pound.

If we were casting .490 diameter lead balls for our rifle or pistol, each one would weigh about 176 grains. A pound of anything weighs 7000 grains.
7000 grains divided by 176 equals 39.77 or 39 lead balls with a little left over to scrape off of the sides of the pot.

Anyway you want to look at it, a person would have a H of a time trying to get 39, .490 diameter balls into a box that measures 1 X 1 9/16 X 1 9/16 inches.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

It's actually pretty easy to cast balls over a small open fire as long as you have a small cast iron cauldron or pot to put the lead into. And, of course, you never use it for cooking again if you've been melting lead in it. Carried a ladle head in the bag and would just pick up a stick and put it into the open collar for a handle.

I used to do demo's of that at the F&I fort at Explore Park outside of Roanoke, Virginia from time to time when their historical walk was open and running. If the lead got too hot, you'd just move the pot away from the coals a bit. Too cold, move it towards them. Pretty simple really. Always seemed to amaze folks we could it that easily.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan

 

[Coot]

Personally carrying pre cast balls makes more sense than carrying lead bars - one less thing to deal with and the balls are available for immediate use. But, one use for the mold not yet mentioned is the ability to recast deformed balls recovered from game that had been shot. This would seem particularly useful to someone like a long hunter, away from a supply base for long periods. :hmm:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Lead was shipped and sold in the form of bars.....

Suppose you are a longhunter or mountain man and you run out of balls......but your buddy has balls, but they are a bigger caliber.... :hmm:
Enter the bullet mold......

 

[bender20]

Just guessing here but I would think that due to the fact that a lot of the guns at the time where smoothbore I would bet they carried shot as there source of lead due to the fact that it is harder to create in the "bush" and then if they ran out of ball they would use their bag mold to cast a couple if they fancied themselves a deer or shot all of their ball at some Indian war party. Nothing to back this up but just would seem to make the most sense to me.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I see your line of thinking.....But we need to establish a more specific place and time....and find documentation....Lead bars are well documented...
During the pilgrim era they shot anything with feathers.....but I could not find mention of shot. maybe someone can.....
Shot is difficult to make and would be of little use to a deer or buffalo hunter..

And then there's swan shot....which by most accounts was small buckshot cast from a mold

 

[Crewdawg445]

Here, check this out on making shot... Rather darn good for field use IMO.

https://youtu.be/RJz2c8oGy0U

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yep! I posted that a while back on another thread...Same method I use.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you use your skillet you start to talk like Zonie after a while.

Fer sure. :shocked2: Look at his next post. :wink:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I got dizzy half way through reading it and had to go lay down.... :haha:

 

[Artificer]

Personally carrying pre cast balls makes more sense than carrying lead bars - one less thing to deal with and the balls are available for immediate use. But, one use for the mold not yet mentioned is the ability to recast deformed balls recovered from game that had been shot. This would seem particularly useful to someone like a long hunter, away from a supply base for long periods. :hmm:

Great points.

Someone going out on a day hunt, or a short hunt and up to a week or so, would not need a bag mold and probably just carried cast balls. IOW, leave the mold at home where it was easier to cast balls.

IMO, the small size of the few extant 18th century Shot pouches seems to me nothing more than "Day Pouches" that survived because they were not used on long hunts and thus more likely to survive. They were used for a short hunt, taken home and hung up when not in use. No need for a larger pouch, just the gear to shoot the gun.

I believe Long Hunters would have carried larger pouches with more gear in them just in case they got separated from their horses or the horses got stolen. If they got attacked by NA's and had to skedaddle, they could survive for some time out of a larger pouch with more balls AND a bag mold, along with more of what we would call survival items today. This along with the fact that on a Long Hunt, they almost certainly recovered shot balls from game and recast them.

There are many more 19th century surviving pouches than 18th century ones and the 19th century ones tend to be larger and some have been found with "extra gear" that would include what we would call "survival items" and some have bag molds.

One would THINK the 19th century bags would be smaller than the 18th century bags, because in many parts of the country, there was not as much danger of NA or hostile European attack. Yet the bags are often bigger and have more "stuff" in them.

Gus