Baker Cavalry Shotgun

[rodwha]

I’m curious as to how useful this shotgun could possibly be. With such short barrels I have a hard time believing it has enough oomph to be practical for much more than small game and within a short range. But that makes me wonder why it would have been used as a cavalry arm and what they would have loaded it with.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/inde...t_name/PS3445+PEDERSOLI+BAKER+CAVALRY+SHOTGUN

Seems it would work nicely for up close rabbits or some such, but what a small range of uses...

Figure it would need more powder to lead and/or larger shot than would be typically used to help hold some energy/velocity, and 3F powder to burn in those short barrels and achieve a useful velocity. But then I’ve read the quicker acceleration of 3F tends to deform the pellets. But then if it’s a close up ordeal I suppose it’s not quite the big deal.

 

[nkbj]

Navy Arms made a SxS 12 with 14" and 28" barrels.
The short ones would be good if you were on horse back.

 

[rodwha]

Good for what though? And loaded how?

Now the 28” barrels I can see being quite useful, except maybe on horseback as an 1860’s cavalry soldier. But then I’d see barrel lengths between 12” and 28” being a bit more ideal. I suppose 12” would be much easier to swing around, but I’m just at a loss for how effective any load from 12” barrels could be. I suppose buckshot or buck n ball would be effective enough at short range even if it weren’t very energetic. Maybe.

 

[BillinOregon]

I'd hate to be standing anywhere remotely near the business end of a short-barrelled 20 gauge loaded with buckshot when it went off, 3F, 2F or 1F.

 

[Gene L]

I'd think with such short barrels, you'd need to decrease the powder charge and increase the weight of lead to give it more time in the barrel to burn the powder. What's shown is basically a pistol loaded with shot.

 

[Columbus]

How'd you like to be on the business end of this one? https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/10/2/i-have-this-old-gun-charles-gourlay-coach-gun/

 

[Grenadier1758]

Um, Cavalry shotgun? I don't think the intent of this weapon was to hunt game. Short range anti-personal weapon. It may fill a purpose for Civil War reenactors as part of a demonstration of tactics, but certainly not as a tool for hunting.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Certainly NOT a standard cavalry arm and - if used at all - never used after something more reliable became available. Pedersoli is simply trying to make a buck.

 

[Eterry]

While not a standard arm for Union forces many Southern fighting men carried their own Arms into battle. One such unit, referred to as Terry's Texas Rangers were known to travel heavily armed, and included dbl barrel shotguns. Years ago I read an article called Grey Coats and Blue Whistlers, IIRC.
It talked about the unit and the fierce reputation they had using buck shot at saber range. IDK if they cut their barrels THAT short, but whose to say they didn't.

The gun pictured wouldn't have much practical use, but would be fun to shoot.

 

[Artificer]

Southron Cavalry Troops used double barrel shotguns very early in the UnCivil War along with a tactic called a "Flanking Carocole." These cavalry would rush in on the flanks of Federal Troops and fire at an angle down the front of the Federal battle line. Filled with buckshot and fired in this manner, each barrel would wound two or more enemy soldiers and would break up inexperienced troops.

However, most of the shotguns used had full length barrels or at least longer than the ones in this example. The idea was you when riding/charging, you did not want a last minute bounce that would jar the gun and put your horse's head in front of the blast.

However, as the Federals got more experience against Cavalry, this shock tactic worked less and less and was then pretty much abandoned and still fairly early in the War.

Gus

 

[rodwha]

Of course. But I like to have my guns as something more useful than just to play with at the range.

 

[nhmoose]

Then don't buy any flintlock smooth bore pistols either. But then they don't have the short 14 inch barrels. [sarcasm/off]

 

[rodwha]

Funny as I’ve always been enamored by the Howdah in 20 ga. But then it’s the same thing without the stock.

And I had also contemplated having a Lyman Plains Pistol reamed to 28 or 24 ga thinking it might be fun for close up small game. Asking questions the consensus was that it just wouldn’t have much oomph to be effective very far.

Forgot to mention that I figured I’d also add a threaded choke. A cylinder for loading and shooting PRB and something like full for hunting. Thought using #5 shot might make the difference in killing power.

 

[nhmoose]

I love #5 shot in my SB's best size for me it kills everything I need to shoot. :thumbsup:

 

[rodwha]

But would it be effective for small game in a short barrel?

I used to use 7 1/2 for just about everything smaller. Now that I’m more interested in BP arms I’ve been contemplating #6 as the velocity is a bit lower than modern shells.

I could see short barrels such as these (

 

[rodwha]

Comparing the Baker shotgun to the Howdah I see, as I thought, they both have the same 11 1/4” barrels, but I see the shotgun states 60 grns of 2F with 1 oz of shot vs 25 grns of 2F with an ounce of shot. Odd...

For close up I’d think deformed pellets from 3F would be inconsequential, and that 3F would be more ideal because of the short barrels. Maybe something like 50 grns of 3F and 5/8-3/4 oz of #5.

 

[BillinOregon]

Didn't one of the Italian houses build a "cavalry double" with 14-inch barrels not that long ago? This is, of course, in oft-cussed "canoe gun" country.

 

[nhmoose]

I have found when comparing to modern shotguns that BP guns kill better with a size or more bigger shot. BP velocities are not the same as the modern suppository ones.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Southron Cavalry Troops used double barrel shotguns very early in the UnCivil War along with a tactic called a "Flanking Carocole." These cavalry would rush in on the flanks of Federal Troops and fire at an angle down the front of the Federal battle line. Filled with buckshot and fired in this manner, each barrel would wound two or more enemy soldiers and would break up inexperienced troops.

Gus, that is very interesting and I have done some reading on the use of the carocole maneuver by cavalry trying to find evidence of it's use during the American Civil War and, as nearly as I can find, there is none. There is no mention that I can find in any US military treatises on the subject of cavalry tactics and it had long fallen out of use in Europe as ineffective. It was found to be most effective in use by cavalry against infantry, I find no indication of it's use against cavalry.

However, most of the shotguns used had full length barrels or at least longer than the ones in this example. Gus

I have to agree with you, the barrel length of the "reproduction" in the original post is far too short to be of more use than a standard horse pistol and it is bulkier and far heavier.

I am aware that private arms were carried by a fair number of southern militiamen some of them double barreled shotguns, but more effective arms replaced these as soon as possible. My wife's family owns a double barrel shotgun marked "Van Lew & Smith - Richmond" on both locks with "London" in silver wire inlay on the top rib of the London proofed barrels. It is well worn and was supposedly carried by my wife's Great-great Grandfather when he first enlisted (as an infantryman) in the Virginia forces at the beginning of the war. The shotgun was sent home after relatively short service in the Confederate service when he was issued a more appropriate and effective weapon.

Also, some double barreled shotguns were issued to recruits, even in Virginia which was better armed and equipped than most southern states. See:

Message from the Execttive of the Commonwealth,
with Accompanying Documents,
Showing the Military and Naval Preparations for
the Defence of the State of Virginia, &c. &c.

at:
https://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html

The following listing is on page 45 of this fascinating document:

Major M.G. HARMAN--Staunton.

50 Double Barreled Shot Guns,
5,000 Caps,
10,000 Flint Cartridges,
2 Kegs Rifle Powder,
10,000 Musket Caps.

In militia service, Harmon had been Lt. Col. Of the 52nd Virginia Reg. of Va. Militia, but was ranked as a major when moved to Regular State Service where he served as head of Virginia's Commissary Dept. and it is likely that the 50 shotguns may well have been for service with commissary troops who did not serve as front line soldiers. The ammunition - cartridges, kegs of powder, percussion caps - were likely for issue where needed.

At any rate, with the undocumented short barrels, I stick by my statement above "Pedersoli is simply trying to make a buck".

 

[Artificer]

Southron Cavalry used the Carocole in the very early battles in Northern Virginia, though it may have been in what is called West Virginia today. Yes, it was only used against Infantry and as I mentioned earlier, it really only worked against new troops and not veterans.

I read of this back in the 1980's when I was doing War Between the States reenacting. It stuck in my mind all these years because of the unusual name of the tactic and because it showed an effective way that short range double barreled shotguns could be used by Cavalry against Infantry.

Of course since most of the research I did back then was first on the Confederate Marines and then on the Virginia Regiment of Volunteers we portrayed, I can't remember where I read it. Sorry, I wish I could offer more details than that.

Gus