Baker rifle by Persersoli. Any news?

[TFoley]

Did the originals shoot a belted ball or was that a later rifle?

The Baker rifle was conventionally-rifles, it is the Brunswick rifle that you are thinking of. It had two twisted grooves that made it shoot a belted ball.

 

[RAEDWALD]

The Baker rifle was conventionally-rifles, it is the Brunswick rifle that you are thinking of. It had two twisted grooves that made it shoot a belted ball.

Or a pointed heavy solid conical winged bullet in the Russian Belgian made Brunswick copies. They even made adjustable rear sights to exploit the much longer range accuracy of their round over the original belted ball. Made much use of by their Finnish sharpshooter regiments.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

If Pedersoli truly produces this gun…I’m ordering it…I’ve wanted one for years, loved the Sharpe Series…read about the 95th during the Napoleonic Period. Yeah it’s a done deal

 

[Rudyard]

Or a pointed heavy solid conical winged bullet in the Russian Belgian made Brunswick copies. They even made adjustable rear sights to exploit the much longer range accuracy of their round over the original belted ball. Made much use of by their Finnish sharpshooter regiments.

I think that's the Luttich 'Brunswick' . Didnt know about the Finnish riflemen but they certainly knew /know how to shoot rifles .Theirs a nice example in the Windsor collection presented to Queen Victoria in David Bakers book .
Regards Rudyard

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Purdey also made some very nice .500" double Belted Bullet (Hollow point and explosive) game rifles.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah, but Pedersoli will probably use the same cheap-assed 1:48 twist that they ruin every other rifle that should have a 'true' PRB / slow twist barrel .....

Not sure one can really say that....

The degree of rifling pretty much doesn't change the price, especially if you use a slower twist. Wear and tear on the cutters and the time needed would increase with milling a faster twist, not a slower one, an drive up costs.

The British had settled on a 1/4 turn as a minimum for bullet stability in a military rifle and with a 30" barrel that would give one a 1:120 twist rate. The idea was enough stability while allowing for quick reloads and maximum shots between swabbings. Their standard though was hitting a target 2' x 6' out to 300 yards. Fine for combat but not good for hunting, so Colerain produces a Baker barrel at 1:66 twist.

Pedersoli produced the Jaeger with a 1:24 twist. The Mortimer is a 1:65. The '61 Springfield is 1:72. Enfields come in 1:48 or 1:78. Their '63 Sharps is in 1:18 (I wonder if this is a typo ?) So they will likely produce something in the 1:60 - 1:70 range to compete with the Colerain product. On the other hand I could see them producing it in smoothbore IF they decide their largest market is Europe, as many European nations look down on anything that is rifled, but shotguns are tolerated. IF they do that, then the smart thing would be to have a good thickness in the barrel walls so that those that can do so, will be able to have them after-market rifled.

Only time will tell.

LD

 

[granth]

It would be interesting to see a barrel with the original 1:120 twist rate.

 

[dave_person]

My real Baker a few years ago was 800 USD at current exchange rates. Pretty ratty in the bore and percussioned in Spain in the 19th century but a genuine, if volunteer, one. Bargains are still out there for the observant. The users must have been skinny little chaps to get down to the sights. Pedersoli will have to allow for modern substantially built old chaps in stocking. Even in it’s day troops complained about the lack of drop. Hopefully they will retain the service twist of 1:120. I doubt if many users will copy the normal service use of cartridges as opposed to loose powder and patch.

Harding covers the ammunition in his seminal study of HEIC small arms. I borrowed my copy in the UK via inter library loans and copied the Baker and Brunswick chapters which are most revealing. If your country does a similar loan service then I urge you to avail yourself of it. In the UK put in a request (£12) via your local library. All volumes are available but each is a separate request. Volume IV is the relevant one.

Hi,
According to Bailey, the original Bakers had straight stocks that the soldiers even then complained about. Some stocks were heated (steam or oil) and bent to fit the soldiers better.

dave

 

[John Spartan]

Not sure one can really say that....

The degree of rifling pretty much doesn't change the price, especially if you use a slower twist. Wear and tear on the cutters and the time needed would increase with milling a faster twist, not a slower one, an drive up costs.

The British had settled on a 1/4 turn as a minimum for bullet stability in a military rifle and with a 30" barrel that would give one a 1:120 twist rate. The idea was enough stability while allowing for quick reloads and maximum shots between swabbings. Their standard though was hitting a target 2' x 6' out to 300 yards. Fine for combat but not good for hunting, so Colerain produces a Baker barrel at 1:66 twist.

Pedersoli produced the Jaeger with a 1:24 twist. The Mortimer is a 1:65. The '61 Springfield is 1:72. Enfields come in 1:48 or 1:78. Their '63 Sharps is in 1:18 (I wonder if this is a typo ?) So they will likely produce something in the 1:60 - 1:70 range to compete with the Colerain product. On the other hand I could see them producing it in smoothbore IF they decide their largest market is Europe, as many European nations look down on anything that is rifled, but shotguns are tolerated. IF they do that, then the smart thing would be to have a good thickness in the barrel walls so that those that can do so, will be able to have them after-market rifled.

Only time will tell.

LD

Pedersoli better make a Baker rifled. Seems to be kinda the whole point to me. Though I truly can’t imagine them going the smoothbore route.
As an owner of several Pedersolis I’m not worried about quality - it’s price!

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Yeah, but Pedersoli will probably use the same cheap-assed 1:48 twist that they ruin every other rifle that should have a 'true' PRB / slow twist barrel .....

I guess all those cheap ass original Hawken rifles with their 1 in 48 twist were all junk too. How on earth did Sam & his brother ever sell any without a "true" PRB barrel?

 

[Rudyard]

Purdey also made some very nice .500" double Belted Bullet (Hollow point and explosive) game rifles.

No pics as yet .You have me confused double belted ? . Never come accross double belted if I seem to recall Jacob tried it , mine's just the two grouves Jeff Tanner made the mould & I made a mould for an two winged HP conical but the Ball shot flatter & seemed enought .Did harvest a Deer with the HP ' uglee'& even in water it would upsett greatly ...Was just a rust streak barrel ex Dufties Auction .Bloke who bought that lot of numerous unearthed barrels scorned ' belted ball's , He no doubt believed Hans Busk . It was so rusted the tang nail , false breach ,trigger plate & trigger, where all rusted together. But the bore was good So I stocked it up useing the now seperated parts described . Only makeing the guard & the B plate of my make & its served me well over nie 40 years so rusted cant pick the makers name, but My 490 deep three grouve ex Stan Share from Argentinny is just as bad & it won me a first at 300 & 500 yards Stan had these rust streaks 3 quid +- at Notts arms fairs , Again bore good So I made a three winged conical mould though it shot patched ball too both half stocked with Hawkins Arms rejected stock blanks & each with worked up 10 Rupee Cawnpore made' local trade 'locks .Might add up to 4 quid a piece plus my time Wouldnt trade then for any new factory gun.
Anyway only add out of interest .
Regards Rudyard

 

[William O.]

I guess all those cheap ass original Hawken rifles with their 1 in 48 twist were all junk too. How on earth did Sam & his brother ever sell any without a "true" PRB barrel?

IBID..

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Pedersoli better make a Baker rifled. Seems to be kinda the whole point to me. Though I truly can’t imagine them going the smoothbore route.
As an owner of several Pedersolis I’m not worried about quality - it’s price!

Well that would be the point. Price!
The larger the production run, the lower the individual unit tends to be. Not always but tends to be. Now if Pedersoli can sell 3X the smoothbore Bakers compared to actual rifled barrel Bakers, because Napoleonic reenactors and Sharpe's Rifles fans buy them while living in countries where a smoothbore flintlock is more easily accepted..., and they are smart enough to have the barrels done with thick enough walls for the Canadian and American (and a few other nations) market to have them actually converted to rifles at their own, after market expense..., then that might be the route that Pedersoli takes.

LD

 

[GREENSWLDE]

No pics as yet .You have me confused double belted ? . Never come accross double belted if I seem to recall Jacob tried it , mine's just the two grouves Jeff Tanner made the mould & I made a mould for an two winged HP conical but the Ball shot flatter & seemed enought .Did harvest a Deer with the HP ' uglee'& even in water it would upsett greatly ...Was just a rust streak barrel ex Dufties Auction .Bloke who bought that lot of numerous unearthed barrels scorned ' belted ball's , He no doubt believed Hans Busk . It was so rusted the tang nail , false breach ,trigger plate & trigger, where all rusted together. But the bore was good So I stocked it up useing the now seperated parts described . Only makeing the guard & the B plate of my make & its served me well over nie 40 years so rusted cant pick the makers name, but My 490 deep three grouve ex Stan Share from Argentinny is just as bad & it won me a first at 300 & 500 yards Stan had these rust streaks 3 quid +- at Notts arms fairs , Again bore good So I made a three winged conical mould though it shot patched ball too both half stocked with Hawkins Arms rejected stock blanks & each with worked up 10 Rupee Cawnpore made' local trade 'locks .Might add up to 4 quid a piece plus my time Wouldnt trade then for any new factory gun.
Anyway only add out of interest .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Well that would be the point. Price!
The larger the production run, the lower the individual unit tends to be. Not always but tends to be. Now if Pedersoli can sell 3X the smoothbore Bakers compared to actual rifled barrel Bakers, because Napoleonic reenactors and Sharpe's Rifles fans buy them while living in countries where a smoothbore flintlock is more easily accepted..., and they are smart enough to have the barrels done with thick enough walls for the Canadian and American (and a few other nations) market to have them actually converted to rifles at their own, after market expense..., then that might be the route that Pedersoli takes.

LD

Good reasoning . The Baker while it aught to have the quarter pitch will likley get more pitch. 1 in 60'' allways seems to function well .Rob Deans Famous Baker has a faster pitch but He uses it with such style. (He being a virtuoso on the concert Baker rifle !) I don't fault that. The 3 Baker barrels I had Orien make .Do have the original 1 in 120 pitch . The only one I made up the owner didn't pull any trees up with it. But he as a poor shot with any rifle ..I can only speak of my own much restored original .
It was so robbed & cut down by some idiot shedder only two brass parts remained the side plate & the wrist escution he cut of all the loops & whittled the fore end to jamb a Springfield band onto it . But the bore being good & made wooden patterns over size & fettled the yellow brass sand casting to fit the cut out/ mortises & scarfed on the new fore end. (Its the first 1800 pattern big box & altererd by Ordnance to take the socket B net . .
So out to the range at 100 yards stick up a photo of a noted anti gunner & first shot went between his eyes . a fluke of course but I read it as the gun was thanking me for saveing it!. Unlike Brer Rob I made no externsive tests it being principally for collection . I wouldnt lug one anywhere & don't t do 95th. Nice touch was the rammer Richard Moore advisor to the Sharpes series gave me one from a wrecked Indian Baker used in the filming , So I fitted a brass rod end to except the Jag & cleaning loop . perfectly good rod, And such like are a pig to make otherwise . There you are a bit of a Baker story .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rock Home Isle]

My favorite book on the 95th Rifles

 

[Wawyasto]

And I will admit to having concerns about a planned Baker price.

I'm not. I don't have the time or skill to take on a TRS Baker kit, so

 

[GREENSWLDE]

No pics as yet .You have me confused double belted ? . Never come accross double belted if I seem to recall Jacob tried it , mine's just the two grouves Jeff Tanner made the mould & I made a mould for an two winged HP conical but the Ball shot flatter & seemed enought .Did harvest a Deer with the HP ' uglee'& even in water it would upsett greatly ...Was just a rust streak barrel ex Dufties Auction .Bloke who bought that lot of numerous unearthed barrels scorned ' belted ball's , He no doubt believed Hans Busk . It was so rusted the tang nail , false breach ,trigger plate & trigger, where all rusted together. But the bore was good So I stocked it up useing the now seperated parts described . Only makeing the guard & the B plate of my make & its served me well over nie 40 years so rusted cant pick the makers name, but My 490 deep three grouve ex Stan Share from Argentinny is just as bad & it won me a first at 300 & 500 yards Stan had these rust streaks 3 quid +- at Notts arms fairs , Again bore good So I made a three winged conical mould though it shot patched ball too both half stocked with Hawkins Arms rejected stock blanks & each with worked up 10 Rupee Cawnpore made' local trade 'locks .Might add up to 4 quid a piece plus my time Wouldnt trade then for any new factory gun.
Anyway only add out of interest .
Regards Rudyard

Sorry to cause you confusion,Rudyard!! The rifle that I saw was a cased Purdey .500" double gun with 2 groove rifling. There were two different moulds in the case. Casting conicle TWO lugged bullets. One mould smaller than the other to account for fouling after a few Tiggers and Piggies, Don't ya know.. or may be Lions and Buffs. It then belonged to the Late DGB. Don't know were it is now.. An aside. There was a Jacobs at the NEC ARMS Fair last Sunday. Bit rough. Ideal for keeping the other sides artillary's heads down at 1500/2000 yds at Sebastapol.. Darn't ask the price!! OLD DOG ..

 

[FlinterNick]

I doubt pedersoli is making a Baker Rifle, if they did it would likely have the wrong style lock as they often use their other lock styles incorrectly. Every ten or so year’s pedersoli makes a commemorative rifle or musket but these don’t often deviate from their base patterns, as this would save them costs on CNC equipment. A baker rifle project would require them to create and completely independent project line.

You’ll see a Long Land Brown Bess by Pedersoli before you see any baker rifle, IMO.

 

[John Spartan]

I doubt pedersoli is making a Baker Rifle, if they did it would likely have the wrong style lock as they often use their other lock styles incorrectly. Every ten or so year’s pedersoli makes a commemorative rifle or musket but these don’t often deviate from their base patterns, as this would save them costs on CNC equipment. A baker rifle project would require them to create and completely independent project line.

You’ll see a Long Land Brown Bess by Pedersoli before you see any baker rifle, IMO.

FWIW Pedersoli has said point blank that they are making one for release in 2023.
Whether the stars align and it actually happens is yet to be determined!