Balance

[krecords]

I am building a Lyman great plains kit. It is my first build and my first B.P. gun. The gun seems very barrel heavy, I was shown a very heavy rifle once that balanced on the trigger but there is no way to add enough weight to the stock to make this one do that so i am curious just where a rifle should balance for optimal performance.
any insight would be appreciated.

thanks,
Kirby

 

[Zonie]

Where should the balance point be? Boy, that's a tough one.

IMO, It depends on what a person wants to do with it.
For target shooting, a somewhat heavy muzzle is a real asset because it takes a little force to make it move.
Little muscle quivers and uncontrollable things like heart beats don't have much effect on it so it stays on target.

For people who hunt birds and such, where rapidly changing the direction the muzzle is pointed is the key to hitting the animal a very light muzzle is good. This is why shotguns have such thin barrels.

For most folks who target shoot and hunt regular game animals a middle of the road approach is the most popular. This explains the popularity of the Thompson Center Hawken, Renegade etc as well as the Traditions and the shorter Lyman rifles.

The Lyman GPR falls into the slightly 'muzzle heavy' area somewhat in the tradition of the Plains rifles used by hunters and trappers in the 1800's.
Notice I didn't say "Hawken" rifles.
This was intentional because although the Hawken rifles were generally heavier than the GPR, they often used slightly tapered barrels to keep them from being so muzzle heavy.

Where do I like my rifles point of balance? Just ahead of the trigger guard. Of course, that's just me.
I suspect that after you've shot your GPR a few hundred times it will start to feel more natural to you. You may even develop a fondness for it and begin to think of your other rifles as being too "light and whippy". :grin:

 

[SgtSchutzen]

I`ll bet there`s as many answers to your question as there are shooters :hmm:. I like mine to balance about where my left hand goes on the forearm. Thats about a foot or so in front of the trigger. Makes it snappy to shoulder, and they balance good for carrying.

 

[jtmattison]

The GPR is definitely barrel heavy. I find when carrying mine they balance right around the first wedge. They are kind of hard to shoot offhand in my opinion but off of shooting sticks, my knee, or the bench I think the heavy barrel helps with accuracy.

I love my GPR's and wouldn't trade them for anything.

HD

 

[krecords]

Thanks for the responses. I am new to this and I figured in the building process I could drill a hole into the stock under the butt plate and add lead round balls to help counter balance the barrel some.

here it is in process

 

[BrownBear]

I haven't seen one carved before, but it looks like nice work. I'm betting yours is 50 caliber. I got my first GPR in 54 caliber simply because it wasn't so muzzleheavy. Subsequently I got a 50 kit, and it was noticeably heavier in the muzzle due to more steel in the barrel. I was able to affect that quite a bit by going to a much slimmer profile in the forend wood while removing very little from the butt. Now it handles much like the 54 factory version.

If I build one from scratch it's going to have a tapered or swamped barrel, specifically to shift the balance back. That reflects my preference for hunting over range ratting, and the fact that most of our hunting is in pretty tight cover requiring faster handling.

I've got a 12 pound GRRW Hawken with a 36" 58 cal barrel tapered from 1 1/8" to 1" at the muzzle. In comparison it makes the GPR seem absolutely light and whippy. I've also got a TC Hawken refitted with a 26" 58 cal barrel tapering from 1 1/8" to 15/16" at the muzzle. That one balances right between your hands, and though about a pound heavier than my GPR 54 it handles really fast, almost like a fine shotgun.

The GRRW is a dandy range gun, but a bit of a grunt for packing and pretty slow to get swinging on moving game. The TC is tough to shoot well on the range because it's not the least bit barrel heavy, but blazing fast to mount and swing on moving game in tight cover.

Guess which one I use more?

 

[Rogue River]

I like the carving. Is it your first attempt at carving also. Very nice. :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

In a shotgun I like the balance point between my hands for fast wing shooting. Neutral balance for fast maneuvers.

In a rifle I like it to balance in my left hand (leaving my right, trigger, hand to be able to pull the rifle into my shoulder while the left hand does the aiming/muzzle-pointing for a steady hold).

 

[krecords]

rogue river,
this is the first time carving a stock on a gun this extensively. I carve Canes and walking staffs sometimes. I did carve a couple scenes on modern riffle stocks a few years ago.

StumpKiller, that is the kind of information I was looking for. I will be using this for hunting and playing I doubt I will ever be into target shoots.

Brown bear, yep you got it, 50 cal. This being my first, I bought what I thought was the best fit for me. I am learning with this build all the things I will want to do next time.

Zonie, thanks for the insight as to how the barrel weight affects different shooting practices that is what I need to hear so I can figure out what I am going to do.

SgtSchutzen I think I will try to get mine to balance in my left hand too. sounds right.

Hunting dawg, I hadn't thought of shooting it off of my knee. I will have to practice that technique.

So, leaving the barrel heavy, and adding weight to the stock, will that counteract the accuracy of the heavy barrel or will the heavier stock help steady the whole gun?

thanks for all the insight!
Kirby

 

[Birddog6]

Unfortunately by the time you get it to balance where you want it, the rifle is gonna weigh 11#. It is a Hawken style rifle & they are ALL muzzle heavy, it is the style of the rifle & it is what it is.

That being said, to get a rifle that balances more back towards the shooter & less muzzle weight, uyou will need to go to a rifle with a swamped barre or at least a tapered barrel, but swamped would balance best.

:thumbsup:

 

[Tom Compton]

if you haven't done anything to the barrel, might see if Lyman would swap a .54 barrel for your .50. Lightening the front is much better than adding lead to the butt on a hunter.

Still prefer balance near the entry thimble.

Added weight to my competition rifles right up to the weight limit but didn't have to carry them for 5-6 hours. Steel or brass rammers and lead under the butt plate.

TC

 

[boar]

( notice I didn't say "Hawken ") You done well Zonie. Dilly

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Good on you sir! You make the point that one can start with a "kit gun" and end up with a rifle that is quite unique. It seems like most people hope their kit will look just like the factory built gun. I don't understand that sort of thinking. You really don't save much money on a kit, probably none at all once you pay for tools and materials, so if one wants a factory looking gun they'd be ahead to just buy it factory finished. You demonstrate the personal touch one can add to make it "your rifle".
:hatsoff:

 

[Pork Chop]

Thanks for the responses. I am new to this and I figured in the building process I could drill a hole into the stock under the butt plate and add lead round balls to help counter balance the barrel some.

here it is in process

Pork Chop likes!! I have stocks if you need more practice...

 

[krecords]

Thanks for the responses people.

Birddog6 : As you say it is what it is. I did not know the barrel heavy thing was part of the style. I will figure out what a swamped barrel is and look for one of those styles next go round. :grin:

40 Flint,
I have already sanded the barrel in prep for the browning solution I am waiting on to come in the mail. Next time I get a Hawkins style I will get a .54 caliber and see the difference.


Coyote Joe: Thanks for the words of encouragement. I too like unique things and I figured that although the historically correct carved guns are beautiful, that was the inspiration of the original gunsmith that created it. I wanted to create my own carvings on a primitive style weapon. I chose the plains rifle kit as I read that it was a good starting point for a novice, and I surely wanted the gun to actually work when I finished it :haha:

Pork Chop: We live on opposite ends of the USA, The freight alone might be more than the carving is worth. It will be a while before I do this again anyway as I have sanded by hand so much on this one that 2 of my fingers have split open!

Thanks again guys!
Kirby

 

[Robert58]

Can't wait to see it finished. Please post pic's of the finished rifle.

Robert

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The barrel heaviness just means you need to carry the rifle a little further forward. The trade off is a rifle that hangs steady when you aim it. You'll soon get used to it.

A swamped barrel starts off heavy at the breech and tapers toward the muzzle. At some point nearer the muzzle it flares out again, but not as large as it is at the breech. For a diagram of this, go to Track of the Wolf's web-site and look under gun parts and then under barrels.

 

[krecords]

Russ T Frizzen: thanks for the definition I will go check out T.O.T.W. barrels section. That is where I bought this Lyman kit from.

Robert 58:
I will most certainly post the finished project but I could do one better. I have been taking pictures of the whole project. I could start another thread and do a build along if anybody wants to see me flail through this thing. My methods may not be conventional but what the heck. I am doing it with what equipment I had and a kit I could afford. With no direct tutor to help, I am being creative as I go. It will definitely be MY unique gun when I am done with it. :grin:
If anybody wants to see a build along, all I need is a little encouragement to post the pictures and write out what I was thinking.

Kirby

 

[Rogue River]

I would be more than happy to see the pic's of the build. :thumbsup: Ron

 

[mykeal]

So, leaving the barrel heavy, and adding weight to the stock, will that counteract the accuracy of the heavy barrel or will the heavier stock help steady the whole gun?

Adding weight to the butt stock without removing weight from the barrel or forestock will not adversely affect accuracy (unless it's now so heavy you can't comfortably shoulder it). The gun will still exhibit the inertia (resistance to movement) it originally had. Adding aft weight will reduce the felt recoil, and in that sense could actually help accuracy a bit as your natural anticipation of and compensation for the recoil will be reduced.